I'm biasly curious what every one thinks. And I mean biasly as in I won't be expressing any of my own views in this post only asking questions and or possibly follow up questions.
1. If you were to be re-balancing the current mmud classes and races what exp value would you give to them. (exp modifier values should be below 300%)
2. To keep the current exp percentage the same what would you give or take away from each of the current mmud classes and races.
3. For each ability of a class or race what value would you give it. ie. hp bracket to stealth and 1-handed to platemail...
4. In the current attempts to balance the game there are trade offs such as chainmail having negative stealth modifiers. If and where would you consider having combinations of abilities detrimental and or advantagous to a characters playability in terms of exp modifier values to their base values.
hmmm was just thinking this today looking over them in mmex...
Classes:
Missionary/ Gypsy and Bard would make them all combat 3 (which bards are anyways) and 200% but the Missonary gets +1 acc to makeup lack of thievery or can wear chain
Most I see/read on her/Forums that other people say Thief 100%exp combat 3. which I think why not
Witchy.. Why not wear platmail??? they don't get many weapons to choose from anyways..unless a quest weapon.
Races:
Human. charm 90 int 110 str 110 and add 10%
Neko.. I would change the health stat to 90...and a +1 dodge they alrdy 50% exp
if that over powering then also change Wis from 90 to 80.
Dark elf: this race got shit on by metro.IMOP. if we keep 90 str how about like a kang add dr2 ac 2
elf: maybe just like dark elf add dr/ac or more str 100?
half-elf: night vision, some acc 2
gnome: get rid of lock picking worthless, +acc 3 wisdom 110
gaunt one: why no one plays this race simple 70 HEALTH.. and the 50%exp get real
80 health 90 agil and stealth to keep the 50% or 40% with no stealth
Gobs: 30% 120 int 110 health but keeping that Super 70 str..
Ok ill Edit this later.. just ad this while taking a break from studying on my mac..
I started to make a list, but I think there are more things that need to be changed than just exp modifiers and abilities. Core mechanics that need to be fixed in relation to each specific class. Likes stealth and backstab modifiers. Class specific spells, gypsy specific magic, not just blanket mage-2 spells. Learning magic spells of the same type at different levels, for example paladins and priests. AC/DR at low levels needs to be tweaked, who isn't sick of seeing 4 warriors, 2 paladins 1 WH in every top ten of every new realm?
Given a decent tool set, I'd love to start with base classes. Warrior, Thief, Priest, Mage. Balance around that then introduce hybrids. Rework the entire system from the ground up. Yet it would take a lot of time, debates and access to code or tools that are not there yet.
Oh well here is classes for now, I'll take a shot at races later.
Class Health Combat Weapon Armor Exp % Other
WH Great 5 All Scale 120 No Magic, +Magic Res, Smash
Warrior Great 4 All All 150 Smash, +1 Min Hp
Paladin Good 4 All All 200 Priest-1, Smash
Cleric Medium 3 Blunt All 175 Priest-2, Smash
Priest Bad 1 Blunt Cloth 120 Priest-3
Mage Bad 1 Staves Cloth 100 Mage-3
Warlock Good 3 All Chain 120 Mage-2
Gypsy Weak 2 1hd Leather 100 Mage-2, Dodge, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Bard Medium 2 1hd Chain 130 Bard, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Ninja Medium 3 All Cloth 150 Dodge, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps, Tracking
Mystic Medium 3 Staves Cloth 175 Kai-3, Dodge, Crits,
Thief Weak 3 1hd Leather 100 Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP, +Bs Min/Max Dmg
Missy Weak 2 1hd Chain 130 Priest-2, Stealth, Locks, Traps
Ranger Good 4 All Chain 175 Druid-1, Stealth, Tracking
Druid Weak 1 Blunt Leather 120 Druid-3
Nothing to drastic, but I think class specific abilities would really help differentiate each class.
Quote from: Darmius on January 27, 2010, 08:01:24 PM
I started to make a list, but I think there are more things that need to be changed than just exp modifiers and abilities. Core mechanics that need to be fixed in relation to each specific class. Likes stealth and backstab modifiers. Class specific spells, gypsy specific magic, not just blanket mage-2 spells. Learning magic spells of the same type at different levels, for example paladins and priests.
I love the idea darmius. Having each race have more beneficial traits making them more worth choosing.
and Excarkun, This isn't a christmas wish list ;)~ lol
and BTW.. Picklocks on gnomes.. Is fucking fantastic. That's why I personally love gnomes.
I believe that the races should be balanced so that they no longer need to add to exp charts, then should basically be equal, with their own str and weaknesses.
The exp % on classes would be more difficult to remove as for balancing the classes it would require changing both the classes and the items...and spells..
So I'd keep the charts. I see no reason to raise the thief to 100% just for combat 3. They suck now, I'd gladly over adjust them into a playable character.
As things are now, I like Warriors at 100% they seem to me, what should be the stample. So I'd base other charts off the warrior. Which will adjust every other class downward. Most of the classes would be 90-100% range for charts. Thieves would probably stay at 80% because I'm jsut against anything lower. I'd happily add new thief abilities as the first 'new' feature in the coding for greatermud though. Paladins would stay at the high end at 200% Obviously mystics no longer are worth the 250%.
I think that when it comes down to usefulness and abilities most classes are fairly equal, but in ability to gain exp some have it easier.
And picklocks on gnomes is awesome, for mages in dark-elves.
QuoteI believe that the races should be balanced so that they no longer need to add to exp charts, then should basically be equal, with their own str and weaknesses.
I agree with this! Finally you might see a human in the game.
Armor Combat Abilities Abilities
Cloth 0 1 0 PP 5 Tracking 5
Leather 5 2 5 PL 5 MagicRes +? 5
Chain 10 3 10 Traps 5 MartialArts 10
Scale 15 4 15 Stealth 5 No Magic -10
Plate 20 5 20 Crit 5
Dodge 5
Weapon Health Magic-1 20
Staff 5 Bad 0 Magic-2 15
1hd blade 5 Weak 5 Magic-3 10
1hd blunt 5 Medium 10 Smash 10
2hb blade 5 Good 15 SuperStealth 10
2hd blunt 5 Great 20 Meditate 10
Classes
Warrior 120
WH 100
Paladin 135
Cleric 85
Priest 65
Mage 60
Druid 85
Warlock 95
Gypsy 85
Bard 105
Miss 90
Ninja 85
Mystic 90
Ranger 110
Thief 60
This is using excel and summation of class skills to determine exp modifiers. This would just need abilities balanced against each other. PP isn't really equal to the value of stealth imo. More though would have to go into this, but it's a decent baseline.
I think it would be really cool to have dynamic character classes. The above skills can be bought with skill points. So every character would get, say 3 skill points at class creation to spend any way they want. Then every 5 levels you get a new skill point that you can spend (say via a quest) to get a new skills. Each skill adds to your exp modifer so they higher level and more evolved your class becomes the longer it takes to level. Why does every warrior have to be equal?
Honestly the plate issue could bhe addressed by making plate gear level restricted. Say chain at 10th, scale at 25th, plate at 35th.
Would make for a much more interesting start to the game.
Quote from: Darmius on February 04, 2010, 01:22:26 PM
This is using excel and summation of class skills to determine exp modifiers. This would just need abilities balanced against each other. PP isn't really equal to the value of stealth imo. More though would have to go into this, but it's a decent baseline.
I think it would be really cool to have dynamic character classes. The above skills can be bought with skill points. So every character would get, say 3 skill points at class creation to spend any way they want. Then every 5 levels you get a new skill point that you can spend (say via a quest) to get a new skills. Each skill adds to your exp modifer so they higher level and more evolved your class becomes the longer it takes to level. Why does every warrior have to be equal?
In the excel summation:
Are the exp modifies per point increase in abilities such as Dodge, Crits, Acc, Enc? Just asking to clarify since I could see someone stating it either way.
I'm going to assume if dynamic classes were in place the base exp table would need to be addressed and changed. However from what you said "Each skill adds to your exp modifier...." At some point the level grind at high levels already can make it take a long time to level at high levels and creates a disability to level without relying on drastic amounts of scripting. Which in turn lowers atk player time. At what point in your stated long time to level do you think that it should be come difficult to level with out relying heavily on scripting?
In terms of the types of magic rather than just their ratings would you alter those modifier values any? i.e high damage, good damage, fair damage, weak damage... Similar for buff, curse, and heal... With in regard to the individual Margery groups rather then just the mana gain or regen gain of their ratings.
Quote from: The Crazy Animal on February 05, 2010, 03:44:19 PM
In the excel summation:
Are the exp modifies per point increase in abilities such as Dodge, Crits, Acc, Enc? Just asking to clarify since I could see someone stating it either way.
In the long run I think that would be the best way. Maybe giving Crits 1, 2, 3, with (increasing/static) costs per point. There would probably have to be counter balances at some point depending on level caps. Or else everyone will have plate/priest-1/etc... easy mode builds. I think a good way to augment this without being specific is to use quests, race and alignment. But this would get complex and require area's with dynamic monster's. Maybe the same quest would be used for priest-1, but getting it at lvl 5 or lvl 50 there has to be some sort of challenge.
Quote
I'm going to assume if dynamic classes were in place the base exp table would need to be addressed and changed.
This depends on negative exp modifier attributes, but maybe everyone starting at 100 or some arbitrary number would be best.
Quote
However from what you said "Each skill adds to your exp modifier...." At some point the level grind at high levels already can make it take a long time to level at high levels and creates a disability to level without relying on drastic amounts of scripting. Which in turn lowers atk player time. At what point in your stated long time to level do you think that it should be come difficult to level with out relying heavily on scripting?
Isn't this already an issue in the current state of the game? Level caps are the easy way to stop this, but what then? There have been idea's thrown around for years. I think this is attributed to content, or lack thereof. New content has to keep flowing or the game gets stale. One way to combat (stealing from modern MMO's) create area's that are group only. Some place people can go on the weekend and tackle harder instances as group only. Regen and monster strength would balance itself to the group.
Apply this to Ancient Ruins, everyone has been there in group. We all remember at least one trip through, getting the first drops. Around lvl 30 plate starts soloing the place for absurd amounts of exp. And groups quit going there. Imagine in if the entry points triggered all mobs in the area to "level up/down" in accordance with the player's levels on the map. Apply min/max caps to the zones and you have an area that will provide group content for more than lvl's 20-25. Provide experience bonuses in these area's and people will be more apt to play atk's and in groups.
Quote
In terms of the types of magic rather than just their ratings would you alter those modifier values any? i.e high damage, good damage, fair damage, weak damage... Similar for buff, curse, and heal... With in regard to the individual Margery groups rather then just the mana gain or regen gain of their ratings.
This falls back on redoing the magic system. I know someone had a post a few years ago on spell circles. I do like the idea.
My take on it is doing something like, example:
Life
|
Earth | Water
\ | /
*
/ | \
Fire | Wind
|
Death
so lets rate spell ranks from 1-3.
Say you take Life-1, you loose access to Death-3
Life-2 you loose access to Death-2, Fire-3, Wind-3
Life-3 you loose access to Death-1, Fire-2, Wind-2, Water-3, Earth-3
So next you take Water-1, you loose Fire-1.
So at max level you could have Life-3, Water-2 Earth-2. Your center point is Life
Add in exp mods for each Magic point in general 5, 10, 15 ... 35. So you'd have 35% exp mod in this instance.
Now add enhancements to this mana regen, max mana, +hit, +dmg, +crit, etc...
Converting a current spell to this:
Magma blast Fire-2 Earth-2
Earthquake earth-3
Or ranking spells
You have a fire shield at fire-1 that does a tiny bit of AC, rfir and shockshield
At fire-3 same stats but more powerful
Hmm I should probably do some work today, but you can get a general idea.
I still want to use the spell circles idea. I'm more than willing to make that work when the time comes.
Class Health Combat Weapon Armor Exp % Other
WH Great 5 All Scale 120 No Magic, +Magic Res, Smash
Warrior Great 4 All All 100 Smash, +1 Min Hp
Paladin Good 4 All All 250 Priest-1, Smash
Cleric Medium 3 Blunt All 180 Priest-2, Smash
Priest Bad 1 Blunt Cloth 140 Priest-3
Mage Bad 1 Staves Cloth 130 Mage-3
Warlock Great 3 1hd Chain 150 Mage-2
Gypsy Weak 2 1hd Leather 150 Mage-2, Dodge, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Bard Medium 3 1hd Leather 150 Bard, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Ninja Medium 3 All Cloth 160 Dodge, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps, Tracking
Mystic Medium 3 Staves Cloth 220 Kai-3, Dodge, Crits,
Thief Weak 3 1hd Leather 80 Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP, +Bs Min/Max Dmg
Missy Weak 2 1hd Leather 150 Priest-2, Stealth, Locks, Traps
Ranger Good 4 All Leather 170 Druid-1, Stealth, Tracking
Druid Weak 2 Blunt Leather 170 Druid-3
Besides exp charts I gave warlocks more HPs, and thieves combat-3. Discuss.
Warrior too low and Paladin too high. Adding priest-1 and taking away a hp/level is worth +150%?
Mystic too high. They are not all that solo and at high levels they don't compete with big 2-handers
*
| Class | Health | Combat | Weapon | Armor | Exp % | Magic | Other |
| WH | Great | 5 | All | Scale | 120 | None | Anti-Magic, Smash |
| Warrior | Great | 4 | All | All | 130 | None | Smash |
| Paladin | Good | 4 | All | All | 250 | Priest-1 | Smash |
| Cleric | Medium | 3 | Blunt | All | 180 | Priest-2 | Smash |
| Priest | Bad | 1 | Blunt | Cloth | 140 | Priest-3 | None |
| Mage | Bad | 1 | Staves | Cloth | 140 | Mage-3 | None |
| Warlock | Great | 3 | 1hd | Chain | 160 | Mage-2 | None |
| Gypsy | Weak | 2 | 1hd | Leather | 170 | Mage-2 | Dodge +10, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP |
| Bard | Medium | 3 | 1hd | Leather | 150 | Bard-3 | Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP |
| Ninja | Medium | 3 | All | Ninja | 160 | None | Dodge +25, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps |
| Mystic | Medium | 3 | Staves | Cloth | 220 | Kai-3 | Dodge +25, Crits |
| Thief | Weak | 3 | 1hd | Leather | 80 | None | Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP |
| Missy | Weak | 2 | 1hd | Leather | 150 | Priest-2 | Stealth, Locks, Traps |
| Ranger | Good | 4 | All | Chain | 230 | Druid-1 | Stealth, Tracking |
| Druid | Weak | 2 | Blunt | Leather | 170 | Druid-3 | None |
After last night's discussion of the charts I've revisted mine a bit. After reading Schwagg's version, I realized that the original chart I copied had Dodge included as a gypsy ability Thinking back on the last time I played a gypsy a small dodge boost doesn't seem like a bad plan for gypsies, so I've kept it in this revision, giving them a +10 dodge bonus. This bonus complements a gypsy's defensive strong point, without being overly drastic.
Schwagg's version had altered Warlocks quite a bit. And where an all weapons mage-1 class is not an unacceptable class, I think its a different class. As such I've left warlocks in their traditional form but I am open to other ideas for the class. I lowered a warlocks chart quite a bit because I feel that the class is overall fairly lack-luster with few real strengths, but they don't have many weaknesses. I liked the idea of letting warlocks have a strong base HP as ssort of a class highlight. As such I slightly raised my previous chart.
I raised warriors by a modest 30% to reflect on the general consensus that they are a very durable and somewhat powerful class.
Witchunters leave me at a sort of sore point. I feel that all they need is a little TLC in future content update to become a completely viable class. As of right now, however they are quite dull. I see uses for them however, and because of that I only lowered their chart slightly.
Many classes have had their 15 minutes, but Paladins have been the reigning champions since 1.11m. As such I've seen it to raise their exp charts to the top of the line. I feel strongly that they are deserving of the increase, and that they will remain a highly played class even with the top exp chart.
Clerics seem as though they'd be quite powerful, but in play they tend to simply be acceptable. They may even be the best balanced class in the game. A defensive powerhouse that gives up their offensive ability. I feel that this class was just about perfect except that their chart were a little high for the game play they provided, as such I lowered their chart. (Perhaps too much)
Priests are a great class, with many ways to play them, a variety of strengths and obvious weaknesses. The only change I considered for them was raising their charts but with their inability to effectively solo the first 35+ levels, I decided to leave them as is.
I can't decide how useful mages actually are. In groups they can be unstoppable, but, how often does that actually happen? I had lowered them slightly, now I've decided to just leave them. They biggest weakness they have is content based, They'll need to be fixed that way.
Bards are a well balanced class, a slightly lowered chart can help to make them able to compete for the top ranks on any board.
Ninjas are an all around weak class, except when hunting big game. not really sure what the best chart would be for them, I took a stab at it.
I did hear an arguement that mystics are fantastic, in truth I feel that they are infact a very strong class. But I feel that they only really shine from level 30-50
Thieves needed help, they got increased combat.
Missy's are about right, they are a fun class that wass simply over priced.
Rangers, I like the idea of rangers in chain with a slightly lowered chart. I'll stick with that until i get a better suggestion..
Druids seem to do what they should, I gave them a slight downard nudge on their chart.
I need to proof read this, I'm just sending to save it atm.
I totally agree with Deathcows table and suggestion, as much as I would like to see warriors stay 100% as a base, and have everyone else dropped. It is a little harder to balance.
I also think making all races comparable is a good idea, and maybe shave of the extreams, like 150 str and 150 health on half ogre.
If we do keep the exp table adjustment for races, how about making human negative -10 or something.
I really like the idea of giving Gypsies a dodge bonus. They can't heal, so their defense is already a lot less than that of a Missionary or even a Ranger with its rudimentary healing abilities.
Most of the exp table suggestions made by DC look pretty good. I think Warriors should be boosted a tad, seeing as how plate is so dominant. Their ability to use most weapons also suggests a slight boost.
I also dig the increased combat for Thieves.. makes them a bit more playable in a non-pvp realm.
Not sure about giving Mystics kai-3 and dropping their chart. That seems a little backwards to me.. I know swan is useless after a certain point, but that's still a lot of kai to keep all your powers and whatnot up.
Oh the kai-1-2-3 w/e is just suppose to be w/e mystics currently have.
Deathcow i agree with EVERYTHING fro myour post except Rangers in chain.
Rangers are pretty powerful IMO. and being a stealth race and hunter of the woods, noones jumping tree to tree in chainmail.
and its just too much... period.. ouch.. rangers have always been a way powerful class.
I think rangers generally go for a dodge build don't they? I've never really thought of them as over powered..Although 2-handed weapons become powerful toward the end of the game.
Quote from: DeathCow on February 20, 2010, 03:50:37 AM
I think rangers generally go for a dodge build don't they? I've never really thought of them as over powered..Although 2-handed weapons become powerful toward the end of the game.
It would probably depend on what type of Ranger you play... an Elvish race might be more inclined to dodge and a Dwarf/Kang-type would probably be more built to hold the heavier dragon leather while still staying Light. As for them being overpowered, I think they're almost underpowered for their chart. No leather class should be 250%, and their magic sucks.. You've gotta be near level 35-40 to hold prow decently, not to mention using mend will drain your mana quite quickly. Their combat and ability to use 2h do make up for a lot, though. Anyway, this is kinda movin off topic.. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in because, well.. that's what I do.
Quote from: Rorik on February 20, 2010, 09:12:16 AM
No leather class should be 250%, and their magic sucks.. You've gotta be near level 35-40 to hold prow decently, not to mention using mend will drain your mana quite quickly. Their combat and ability to use 2h do make up for a lot, though.
Dood ur crazy, their magis is ne of hte best in game.
They get armour spells, HEAL spells, and resistance spells in one bundle.... WTF are u an idiot? shitty spells?
barkskin, resist fire, ANTIDOTE, Freedom? Rapid healing? Mend? uhh starlight? ENTANGLE?
You are a nub. Im sorry but you are. Rangers spell combination is WAY powerful. they are an ultimate PVP AND script/pve class, heals, armour, hold spells, freedom spells cure poison. man.. they are the shit.
and yes combat 4 with 2 handed weapons MORE THEN MAKES UP FOR ANY OF THEIR LOSSES..... Wow!
get real... lol
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 09:44:16 AM
Dood ur crazy, their magis is ne of hte best in game.
They get armour spells, HEAL spells, and resistance spells in one bundle.... WTF are u an idiot? shitty spells?
barkskin, resist fire, ANTIDOTE, Freedom? Rapid healing? Mend? uhh starlight? ENTANGLE?
Yeah, mend is awesome. It caps at 27 and it's not going to help you when you fight monsters that can do 200+/round against your leather AC. There's a reason you don't see Rangers loop solo in places like the Dying Fields. Yes, elemental resistances are very helpful in certain areas in the game. Yes, antidote is helpful. Rhel is great, but if you're going to cast it every 5 minutes you're going to run out of mana soon. Starlight is moot with gjr's except in the White Dragons.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 09:44:16 AM
You are a nub. Im sorry but you are. Rangers spell combination is WAY powerful. they are an ultimate PVP AND script/pve class, heals, armour, hold spells, freedom spells cure poison. man.. they are the shit.
and yes combat 4 with 2 handed weapons MORE THEN MAKES UP FOR ANY OF THEIR LOSSES..... Wow!
They are not the ultimate script class, especially solo. Yes, they are useful for PvP. But don't try to pass off mend as a great healing spell and leather as good armor. You're the same guy that cries about chainmail DR being low for Warlocks, yet you defend Rangers by saying they have great armor? I suppose you're going to tell me Paladins' magic is way powerful, too.. major healing, prev, cure and site are about the only spells you'll ever use. They don't get entangle, but they get plate.. I'll take that any day, especially on a lower exp chart.
I never said Rangers were weak and worthless. I just said I thought they were underpowered for their chart and explained why. You can feel free to call me a nub or noob or whatever, that's the glory of the internet.. but it doesn't do much to refute my argument or solidify yours.
Sure it does, everything you just said was pointless.
You can whine about any class and their shortcomings, rangers have far less then any class.
And scripting solo, MOST classes need a script partner that is NOT a plate wearer. (at least until some point in leveling)
Rangers, certainly do just fine solo trust me.
I never said anything about mend being the "greatest healing spell ever" Mystics get "swan" which heals half what mend does, and u dont hear them bitching. reason? cause they are glad they get healing period.
*Having a heal spell for a warrior type AT ALL is fantastic. Dont just bitch because it doesnt heal 200 hps. that's stupid and far overpowered.
**Anyone can bitch about not being able to heal against monsters that do 200+ dmg a round. NOT JUST RANGERS. God u are a nub. even responding to this hurts my head.
I never once cried about DR being low on warlocks, I stated the obvious, "that is one of the shortcomings of BEING a warlock"
please make sure you know what your talking about when u type next time.
I also NEVER said rangers leather armour is "GREAT" i just said thats part of being a ranger. There are some aspects of a class that NEED to be looked at and worked on. On a ranger, IMO*, armour does *Not. If we change everyones class to what we "want" outside of whats "fair and balanced" then we will end up giving every class platemail and max hp's. It's stupid. go play on an edited board then.
Please stop arguing your point to me, I see your side of the argument from your pespective already, and I have come the the conclusion you ate paint chips as a child. good day ;)
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
Sure it does, everything you just said was pointless.
You can whine about any class and their shortcomings, rangers have far less then any class.
Have you ever seen a Paladin? Or a Half Ogre Mage with a blackwood staff? Rangers are good, yes.. and most classes have the potential to be good, as long as you play it right and gear it right.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
And scripting solo, MOST classes need a script partner that is NOT a plate wearer. (at least until some point in leveling)
Rangers, certainly do just fine solo trust me.
I'm aware Rangers do fine.. I've played a few myself. And when it comes time to level past 45, and you start playing in areas that deal serious damage, Rangers are on the short end of the stick since their healing is inadequate and their armor doesn't allow them to compensate.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
I never said anything about mend being the "greatest healing spell ever" Mystics get "swan" which heals half what mend does, and u dont hear them bitching. reason? cause they are glad they get healing period.
*Having a heal spell for a warrior type AT ALL is fantastic. Dont just bitch because it doesnt heal 200 hps. that's stupid and far overpowered.
**Anyone can bitch about not being able to heal against monsters that do 200+ dmg a round. NOT JUST RANGERS. God u are a nub. even responding to this hurts my head.
I didn't insinuate you said mend was awesome. I was making a point that it isn't all that great, especially when dealing with mobs that do massive damage, and I don't think anyone other than you drew the conclusion that I'm saying everyone should have a spell that does. Classes with higher AC (and lower charts) will not have to deal with that problem.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
I never once cried about DR being low on warlocks, I stated the obvious, "that is one of the shortcomings of BEING a warlock"
please make sure you know what your talking about when u type next time.
That is hilarious, coming from you. Just thought I'd interject that.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
I also NEVER said rangers leather armour is "GREAT" i just said thats part of being a ranger.
When you were listing benefits, you listed armor. If you didn't think that was a benefit, you shouldnt've included it in your list.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
There are some aspects of a class that NEED to be looked at and worked on. On a ranger, IMO*, armour does *Not. If we change everyones class to what we "want" outside of whats "fair and balanced" then we will end up giving every class platemail and max hp's. It's stupid. go play on an edited board then.
I'm not saying everyone should have plate and max hp's. I never even insinuated that. My point has been that since classes that do have big hp and do have big ac fare much better in most areas of the game, Rangers pay a little bit too much when it comes to their exp chart.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
Please stop arguing your point to me, I see your side of the argument from your pespective already, and I have come the the conclusion you ate paint chips as a child. good day ;)
For the last time, my point was Rangers pay too much for their skill set. And I'm also finished. And if you're going to insult someone, at least TRY to be original. Or funny.
I still dont see where anyone would think that rangers have great, or even good, defense at all. They are the stereotypical glass cannon.
Slutfishy is on the good drugs
I take what people say with a grain of salt. The defensive ability has been well documented, people have created very well thought out posts in the past about balance issues and supported it with builds and statistics. As for a rangers ability to do damage, and other two handed classes its honestly a little overboard when it comes to scripting. A small example, a storm giant has 750 hps. A good avg round from any high level class is going to take 2 rounds to kill a storm giant, so an avg round of 375->749 is ~=. Meaning that over time, 375 avg round and a 749 avg round will kill close to the same amount of giants. This means that the exp rate in the area will be decided by defense. Of course its entirely possible that rangers can, and do get a avg round greater than 750, but at the cost of defense.
Rangers are almost useless solo. The only way they can get decent defense is through dodge, and you rely heavily on lims and high level gear and won't approach a mystic or ninja or bard or gypsy in these builds. The other options are to go DR and script the galleon or go resistance and script dragons -- whoopee.
They do have some advantages for PVP (stealth, tracking), but these abilities are antiquated in our high-level high-damage scripting game.
Compare them to a paladin. They really don't win in any category except elemental resistance.
Reading through this thread I have noticed very different opinions that seem to be based heavily on classes abilities in PVE, with much less thought given to PVP. I have always found the 250% exp table for a ranger, while incredibly expensive, to be fair because while in PVE it cannot stack up to say, a Paladin, it more than makes up for it in PVP abilities (the combination of supernatural stealth, big combat damage, freedom, entangle, a couple of damage over time spells and prowess/camo can be rather devastating). If you look at the class from a non-pvp realms perspective however, the class is worth no where near as much.
I suggest that perhaps people need to suggest an exp % chart for both non-pvp and pvp realms. It seems rather ridiculous to me, but if you don't have pvp, you don't have half the game, and some classes become nowhere near as interesting (Does anyone at all go gaunt on non-pvp?).
I would love for Rangers to be given chainmail, but honestly I also think that would make the class hideously over-powered. So do it, for me :)
For those that don't know, I was Kqaltha on the PVP realm, Kang Ranger, level 63 before the crash.
I'd have to disagree that PVP is half the game. I mean, do ya really spend 12 hours a day hunting down other players?
I'd say the game is 50% afk, 50% atks. You can then break up atks into Exping, Boss Hunting, PVP.
I mean I could make almost the same arguement you made for missionarys (the combination of supernatural stealth, medium combat damage, big healing, curp, hold person, a couple of curse and bless spells and zeal/glit can be rather devastating)
Lets not forget tracking please. 250% exp table was before necko, ninja and rangers only ones with tracking. As far as rangers being a glass cannon thats a little silly, they have healing, rapid healing, skin, anti.
Rangers get nice hp roll 5-9
You cant dodge spells.
So glass cannons, are bard, thief, gypsy,
mage and priest at low levels.
Low AC, low hps.
>DC
I'll just clarify that I didn't really mean 'half the game' as in half my at keys time is spent pvping - I'm too lazy for that these days. What I meant was that when pvp is removed from the game, you lose an entire section of what the game can (and admittedly not always is) be. Gang intrigues, people backstabbing each other (literally and figuratively). Gang alliances that get argued over and truly broken. Blood (text-based) fueds between players and gangs. Dragging bosses out into people you don't likes script spot. Dominating areas by forcing other people out of them. I'll admit that non-pvp can have some of this, but there is no real backing it up with action, other than the ability to hoard limited items. Being good/evil/neutral only effects where you script and with what items on non-pvp. On a pvp realm, people who are evil WILL be attacked more - even though there isn't much difference between an evil character and one that is neutral or above. Can anyone remember the last time someone did an item trade or sale, and one side didn't pay up? I can guarantee you it happened on a pvp realm.
It is this very chaos that we humans create that feeds a different kind of game on pvp realms. I just wish that pvp itself was still moderately fair, and not just based around attempting to round the other person (oh for the days before quick and deadly was introduced - RIP Mod4).
Also, I would agree with your statement that a Missionary when played well can be a very powerful pvp tool. It's why they have such a high exp table. Admittedly, I still remember pvp as it was, so I remember some very deadly Neko Missionaries causing me all kinds of trouble. It may be that because I remember that time, my views are coloured to what was, instead of what is.
>Thergin
Thanks for reminding me about tracking, I had completely forgotten about it because I haven't had it while playing on Greatermud, but this is one really important ability on a pvp realm. I've tracked people to stashes dozens of times, found people hiding in rooms afk and killed them (I don't care if you think this is dishonourable - Mud has no honour system, and if you do it, you deserve what you get), used it to figure out peoples movement patterns in pvp and of course yes, just tracked them down to kill them.
>Interchange
Rangers are not as useless solo as you think. Can they compare to a plate wearer? No. But with good gear, a Ranger will get probably three quarters of the exp of a solo Paladin - at least with good gear. With bad gear, they do get worse very quickly.
Quote from: DeathCow on February 25, 2010, 01:52:37 AM
I'd have to disagree that PVP is half the game. I mean, do ya really spend 12 hours a day hunting down other players?
I'd say the game is 50% afk, 50% atks. You can then break up atks into Exping, Boss Hunting, PVP.
That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.
Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.
If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate. We shoulden't build the game around scripting.
The makers of "WOW" don't build the game and update it based on the people who "farm" for gold and items so to make it easier for them to sell their shit on Ebay. It would not make sense. Zetetic, is the first person who has jumped into this thread with an HONEST and FAIR opinion of how rangers should be looked at.
Everyone else goes "dood, it would be sweet if rangers had this, gimme gimme, it's christmas"
You dont just build classes and races to what would be "better "(for you) you build them to be fair, and you have to take all perspectives of gameplay into account.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.
Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.
If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate. We shoulden't build the game around scripting.
Megamud and scripting are a huge part of this game. Without them the game would have died off a long time ago. I don't think they should be the "foundation". Yet they need to be heavily considered in the design process.
Development needs to choose which way the game will be focused, PVE with PVP or PVP with PVE. You can't have both as equals, it has been proven over and over again with almost every MMO.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.
Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.
The instant going from level to level required multiple millions of experience, it was built to be scripted. If not, very few people would've continued playing the game. PvP isn't what it used to be.. it used to be based on ability to kill, not the ability to manipulate the mechanics of the game (surprise rounds, party bugs, etc). THAT was Player vs. Player.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate.
That doesn't have to be the case. You must realize that if you were required to be at keys for an inordinate amount of time, the number of players would drop even more dramatically. A lot of people have jobs, families, chores and other things that don't allow for time at keys every day. I don't want to spend weeks getting big enough to kill a mid-level boss. Letting a program do the grinding for you and then having the ability to jump into a boss run when you have time is a far better option to play the game than to force everyone to spend more time at keys.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
We shoulden't build the game around scripting.... It would not make sense. Zetetic, is the first person who has jumped into this thread with an HONEST and FAIR opinion of how rangers should be looked at.
Read: "Zetetic is the only one who hasn't pointed out flaws in my ideas and also thinks Rangers are awesome." My opinions were honest, too. I wasn't lying when I said what I think of them, nor did I have an ulterior motive in saying what I said. You may not like it or agree with it, but that doesn't make my opinion unfair (if having an unfair opinion is even possible?)
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
Everyone else goes "dood, it would be sweet if rangers had this, gimme gimme, it's christmas"
No one has said this. Those who have disagreed with you all made points about what Rangers don't have and how what they do have isn't worth their exp chart in a PVE. I agree with Zetetic's assertion that it may be worth it in a PvP realm, but I would go so far as to say that a majority of Realms are PVE. I may be wrong, but it's at least close to 50/50. Maybe some changes could be made in regards to charts and abilities when it comes to setting up a game as PVE or PVP.
Quote from: SluTFisHy on February 25, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
You dont just build classes and races to what would be "better "(for you) you build them to be fair, and you have to take all perspectives of gameplay into account.
At least we're in agreement on this part, though perhaps our definitions of balance may differ. When I point out what a certain class doesn't have, it doesn't mean I think that it should.. just that it doesn't have it and may be at a disadvantage compared to another. Flame away and hit me with more negative karma.
Quote from: Thergin on February 25, 2010, 06:18:30 AM
Lets not forget tracking please. 250% exp table was before necko, ninja and rangers only ones with tracking. As far as rangers being a glass cannon thats a little silly, they have healing, rapid healing, skin, anti.
Rangers get nice hp roll 5-9
You cant dodge spells.
So glass cannons, are bard, thief, gypsy,
mage and priest at low levels.
Low AC, low hps.
A good priest even at low level has perfectly decent ac. Really Priests are pimp, except for solo scripting which they are a bit slow without the right equipement.
I'd like to point out that when it comes to PVP I might as well be the mythical Efa. I'm not out of my element when talking about it. Tracking is not important. I can find anyone I want to find with or without it. People always run in a familiar pattern.
Scripting is Majormud. Its not a big part of it, its not a huge part of it. Scripting is Majormud. One of the most important goals on GreaterMud was Megamud compliance. Which required lots of work and understanding the anti-scripting features in majormud that Megamud requires to work properly. If the effort to make Greatermud megamud compliant hadn't been made then none of you would be playing it, let alone posting about it. And no the game wasn't built to be scripted, but it has been since day one. The game when built had a max level of 12. Its evolved well beyond its original build. At this point the game is designed to be scripted.
Rangers are not a great class, they are, however, far from the worst. Fixing them, in my eyes, was as simple as an adjustment in their basic stats. Plate classes are rediculously overpowered in defence. Classes with less that combat 3 are extremely weak in early game acc. Ugh...
Anyone with high combat scripts better than the magic 3s(unless rooming). There are loads of good suggestions in this thread, mine is a bit different.
Playing a magi-3 class stinks until you several limited mana regen items. It always has. You can't start casting efficiently until you either get them or get a spell similar to ntap. I think lower level spell damage from 1-30 needs to be significantly increased(to reduce casts) or fix the itemization.
I think utility should coincide with usability. The fact that a druid can remove poison ends up hampering his leveling ability. A warrior is the perfect example of this. They have very little utility other than attacking last and eating damage.....this coincides with their usability. They can take damage and keep swinging.
This is a nice topic. A few responses are as followed:
Rangers are powerful - no need for chain. Slutfishy was right, you don't jump from tree to tree in chainmail. I think the use of dragon hide is enough for a class that can bs for 250 easily higher up. Not to mention it's usually followed up by a 2-hander (at least that's what i did with my rangers) after the bs so you get maximum damage. The exp table drop I respect... I feel nothing should be 250% because that's insane later in the game, say past 50 when your exp to next level is waaaay high. About the mend opinions. I think, even for a druid, mend is very lacking. It should heal more later on. Even a druid struggles with mend and rhel, only difference between them and rangers is rgen. Even giving a ranger some sort of rgen spell could work.
Plate wearers, plate wearers, plate wearers... everyone keeps bitching about them. Come on, you don't bitch when your Hog Warrior friend pwr lvls you from 20-50 do ya? Of course they are overpowered.. their fucking warriors (or paladins) they need the AC to stay in the front ranks.The only other character i would use as a tank aside from those 2 classes is a mystic or a ninja or anything with insane dodge. A warrior with 100/30 AC is a god (imo) and a higher exp table i can understand here. However, don't do anything else to them.
Thieves - thank god they are now combat 3 they were severely lacking. Thank you for also NOT allowing them chain because, once again, you don't sneak with chainmail on.
Gypsies - no argument there with dodge, great idea.
As for the rest, no big deal. I just keep seeing this and that about rangers and all-in-all, it doesn't matter what you play - your character will have maxed stats someday. Getting them powerful in the end (and everyone misses this point) heavily relies on what race you pick. You wouldn't want a goblin warrior with 70 str leading your party - nah, you'd like a nice 150 str HOG warrior on the front ranks.
Quote from: The Crazy Animal on January 27, 2010, 05:53:12 PM1. If you were to be re-balancing the current mmud classes and races what exp value would you give to them. (exp modifier values should be below 300%)
2. To keep the current exp percentage the same what would you give or take away from each of the current mmud classes and races.
ClassesThief - keep as is
Warrior - keep as is
Witchunter - down to 115%. They have their advantages but warriors can out-damage and out-tank them in the long run.
Mage - keep as is
Priest - keep as is
Warlock - down to 150%. Maybe if the chart is low people will play them.
Ninja - down to 170%. Ninjas are good but they're strictly melee and I think 170 reflects their limitations better.
Druid - keep as is
Bard - 200. Slightly higher than druids because of combat-3.
Gypsy - 200. This might still be too high.
Missionary - 200. I feel bards/gypsies/missionaries should have the same chart.
Cleric - keep as is
Paladin - up to 230%. Strongest, easiest class to play in the game.
Rangers - down to 230%. Rangers have always only been meh even with 2h and combat-4. I'm tempted to put them lower than paladin but this is already a big drop.
Mystic - keep as is
RacesI think the races are pretty balanced. I'd consider giving humans a negative 5% value (for bards maybe) or eliminating them altogether. Gaunts need a lower chart (30% maybe) or more health/abilities.
Quote from: Silvix on May 14, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
This is a nice topic. A few responses are as followed:
Rangers are powerful - no need for chain. Slutfishy was right, you don't jump from tree to tree in chainmail. I think the use of dragon hide is enough for a class that can bs for 250 easily higher up. Not to mention it's usually followed up by a 2-hander (at least that's what i did with my rangers) after the bs so you get maximum damage. The exp table drop I respect... I feel nothing should be 250% because that's insane later in the game, say past 50 when your exp to next level is waaaay high. About the mend opinions. I think, even for a druid, mend is very lacking. It should heal more later on. Even a druid struggles with mend and rhel, only difference between them and rangers is rgen. Even giving a ranger some sort of rgen spell could work.
MMUD has always irritated me by calling this class a ranger. Traditionally, all Ranger classes in RPGs are adept with a bow. Maybe it is due to the difficulty of utilizing range weapons in a cool way through text that they implemented Rangers the way they did? I always thought it was common knowledge that universally in RPGs rangers were 1H (if a melee at all) and +bow stats. Im thinking the ranger should be something like:
Combat 3 (1H)
+20% Acc with bow
+4 max damage with bow
+dodge with bow (to help the idea of fighting from afar)
+crits with bow
220 exp table
-AC with melee weap
This is a cool thread btw.
Quote from: Teferi on May 17, 2010, 12:21:45 AM
MMUD has always irritated me by calling this class a ranger. Traditionally, all Ranger classes in RPGs are adept with a bow. Maybe it is due to the difficulty of utilizing range weapons in a cool way through text that they implemented Rangers the way they did? I always thought it was common knowledge that universally in RPGs rangers were 1H (if a melee at all) and +bow stats. Im thinking the ranger should be something like:
Combat 3 (1H)
+20% Acc with bow
+4 max damage with bow
+dodge with bow (to help the idea of fighting from afar)
+crits with bow
220 exp table
-AC with melee weap
This is a cool thread btw.
+20 acc with a bow I could see, +20% though is way overpowered towards end game I think because that would constantly scale up as your character scaled up.
rgen on druid need 2 tick 1 round
gnome half elf 10%
missionary gypsy bard 200% yes
witchunter 130% fix Mres make it better
put new class in make fun
>Teferi
Rangers are not just known for their ability to use bows in D&D, they are also known for duel-wielding weapons, not being one handed wielders.
I do not feel that mend is under-powered. For it's mana it is excellent. Do remember that we want to keep classes unique. Druids are not healers, the priestly classes are.
Also, remember that chainmail items already have stealth penalties, so that if a Ranger chose to wear it, they would no longer be a powerful sneaker. The problem is that we currently have supernatural stealth. I always felt that this was added to the game because of a lack of precision in how majormud did it's sneak rolls (ie even with 200 stealth you would fail sneak about 5%, instead of say 1/200 rooms).
Quote from: Zetetic on May 17, 2010, 07:45:38 PM
(ie even with 200 stealth you would fail sneak about 5%, instead of say 1/200 rooms).
2%
while chainmail should have a negative stealth componet. it should also take increased damage from arrows and bolts.
Same as Platemail being damaged more by bastard swords.
Quote from: jim gilmore on May 01, 2014, 04:12:00 AM
while chainmail should have a negative stealth componet. it should also take increased damage from arrows and bolts.
Same as Platemail being damaged more by bastard swords.
There could be different types of arrows too. Not to interject my opinion to much.