Quote from: Gardner Denver on May 29, 2010, 07:20:34 PM
Placed a 60% cap on dodge. Let's see how this works.[/li][/list]
The old, "we can't come up with a working formula so we'll just cap it somewhere". The bane of mmud.
Quote from: kalus on May 30, 2010, 03:02:29 AM
The old, "we can't come up with a working formula so we'll just cap it somewhere". The bane of mmud.
Since it's possible to get over +100 dodge on a character yeah we kind of had to cap it. It's either cap it or nurf it.
How about capping based on agility or race?
Arbitrary example:
Ogre caps dodge at 20%
Kang at 40%
Goblin at 60%
Halfling at 90%
How about instead of capping you just add in diminishing returns for dodge in pvp...seems like a much better idea to me unless you're planning on copying Metro's failures verbatim.
Do you have any suggestions?
Cap dodge at (agility/3)+racialbonus+classbonus-encumbrancepenalty (none +10, light 0, medium -10, heavy -25)
(Off the top of my head the classbonus for mystic/ninja is 25? That's the assumption for the below calculation, also with stats maxed)
Half Ogre Mystic = 55 max dodge (they'd always be none)
Halfing Priest = 60 max dodge (assuming light enc)
Halfling Ninja = 85 max dodge (assuming light enc) <-- This may requiring testing in case it is unbalanced.
Perhaps it would be better to make encumbrance = none:0, light:-5, medium:-15, heavy:-25
Thoughts and suggestions?
So you suggest that we do away with +dodge items all together?
Quote from: Gardner Denver on May 31, 2010, 06:46:20 AM
So you suggest that we do away with +dodge items all together?
Nope. I just suggest that the cap for dodge be modified. It is currently set to a hard 60. I think that there should be an advantage to being a high agility race and also mystics/ninjas being able to have more dodge than other classes. Otherwise we're going to see all high strength races in the dodge classes, not a balance of people who want strength and those that want to dodge.
Quote from: Zetetic on May 31, 2010, 02:19:07 AM
Cap dodge at (agility/3)+racialbonus+classbonus-encumbrancepenalty (none +10, light 0, medium -10, heavy -25)
(Off the top of my head the classbonus for mystic/ninja is 25? That's the assumption for the below calculation, also with stats maxed)
Half Ogre Mystic = 55 max dodge (they'd always be none)
Halfing Priest = 60 max dodge (assuming light enc)
Halfling Ninja = 85 max dodge (assuming light enc) <-- This may requiring testing in case it is unbalanced.
Perhaps it would be better to make encumbrance = none:0, light:-5, medium:-15, heavy:-25
Thoughts and suggestions?
I'd have to see it in play but I like a formula-based approach rather than an arbitrary cap. These numbers seem a bit high because you have to factor AC in there too. A good-aligned priest can get over 100 ac. If it had 60 dodge as well it would be virtually unhittable.
I like the thoroughness of the thinking behind this though.
Just so we're clear on this point. 98% dodge in majormud is a bug. So don't use that as an arguement against what we have done here with dodge.
I did think of Priest and the high AC/dodge combo that they get when I created that formula. Gardner, I think that Ptery was more referring to the fact that at a Priest can get over 100AC, and then stack all their dodge on top of that. Remember that to hit you go your accuracy + random modifier vs (dodge+ac) in order to hit (yes I realise the calculation is more complicated than that).
So under our two worst case scenarios: Kang Priest and Halfling Priest
Kang can get 110-115AC? Under my proposed formula, they would only be able to get 30 dodge + an encumbrance bonus. High, but still hittable.
Halfing can do 105-110AC? (I don't have mme handy so I can't do the proper calculation)
With my formula you'll get a max of 60 dodge. This is still high but not (I think) unhittable, and halfling pays for this by having worse wisdom and less HPs than the Kang.
I'm fairly sure that the equivalent of 170 AC is hittable by players - it's kind of hard to tell without doing the exact testing. I believe that the uber-ac of priests is a bit more of a content issue that needs to be sorted out. A silk wear shouldn't have that much.
Also remember that we do not need to settle for pooly thought out designs like the cap of 60 in regular mud. Greatermud can be better and make more sense than it's aged father (or should I refer to Greatermud as more of a clone, created by evil science?).
Quote from: Gardner Denver on May 31, 2010, 09:09:17 AM
Just so we're clear on this point. 98% dodge in majormud is a bug. So don't use that as an arguement against what we have done here with dodge.
MMUD has heartbeat resists on spells, also heartbeat fail rolls for dodge. Because of this, MMUD has a 98% dodge cap.
Do you realize my halfling priest has ZERO reason to wear any dodge gear because he literally cannot benefit from any more dodge beyond his stats? Halflings have gone from one of the best race choices to next to rock bottom.
Foresight Anyone?
No idea because my halfing mage had a dodge of 28% Thats 150 agil, 32% encum, gold emblem,silversilk tunic. Seems close to right maybe considering I need mira and mans or a tiger-claw. But I have never seen it higher then 28% and that's after a week without resetting. As of the recent patch this weekend my dodge has dropped to 12% and I cannot figure out why..
The 60% cap is a temporary solution to the problem in pvp until we can come up with something better.
This is no different that when we put in the temporary MR. A stop gap measure until a better solution can be found.
If anyone has some specific ideas on how this can be fixed that do not overpower dodge then I would be happy to hear them.
Can we move this section and my suggestions to a new topic for discussion on the matter? I'd like to iron out my ideas a bit more in the proper place.
Done
Basically I don't see dodge cap working at all right now. Instead of actually creating a cap, You somehow lowered the dodge rates in the formula. First step would be to mainline the cap so it doesn't pull from your current attributes, but does actually make a cap limit, instead of an inhibitor.
The idea of racial dodge caps is unique and probably the best solution and now, you also have another stat to add to all races, I.E. Your dark-elf can cap out @ 50% or so, You might be more inclined to use that race instead of a tank for your heavier classes, Because now you can build your dodge (we'll say) warlock instead of the usual tanker, Say your kang caps out @ 25% or so, it could potentially be a determining factor when you go to make a caster?
Anyone else have any other thoughts?
Gardner: Is there any possibility that we can test a level 50 combat 3 character vs a level 55 Priest with 110 AC and 90 dodge?
I ask because I would prefer to adjust my proposed formula to cap dodge at (agility/2)+racebonus+classbonus+encumbrancebonus and I would like to know whether we will end up with the old 99% dodge problem.
The other thing that I would like to add is that currently agility, charm and level (can someone confirm this?) all provide dodge bonuses? I think that the bonus for what level you are needs to be removed, or badly nerfed. Capping dodge at all devalues the +dodge items, and having level bonuses means that characters that otherwise would not dodge very much (cough, Half Ogre Mystic, cough) will eventually lose much of the downsides to their character.
I would prefer that people balance their choice of race/class based on something important, instead of just saying 'Well at level 75+ Half Ogre is better at everything because of the hitpoints. Why would I go anything else?'.
So from the looks of things the next thing`that needs to be discussed for dodge, is how it is calculated. Currently (please correct me if I'm wrong Vitoc) what I have gathered is that characters first do a swing attempt vs ac as per normal. If that hits, then the characters dodge % is rolled for, so for a character with 80 dodge, they have an 80% chance of not being hit by the swing, with no modifiers being given with regard to the swinging players accuracy.
In regular mud I believe the calculation was that players swing against a combination of AC + dodge with dodge being modified on a sliding scale vs the swinging characters accuracy. Also regmud had a hard dodge cap of 60 (once again, feel free to correct me if you know better).
Niether of these systems balances out particularly well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, and I know that the current dodge system is far superior to what we have had in it's various iterations previously. I'm just saying that I think we should try to work out what we would consider to be a fair system. The issue with the current system is that you cannot improve your chances of hitting someone with high dodge no matter what. The dodge roll is vs a fixed amount, so even Witchunters (who should in theory have high accuracy) have a terrible time hitting anyone with dodge.
I like the idea of relaxing or removing the soft/hard caps to the dodge system (giving an advantage to those with high dodge characters), but adding some kind of accuracy of opposing monster/player modifier to the roll. This would mean that as you increase in level, or kit yourself out with +accuracy gear you become more likely to hit your opponent.
So say a character has 110 dodge (unhittable with 0 accuracy bonus) and they are fighting a high level Witchy. We add the Witchy's accuracy bonus (I was thinking of making the calculation similar to the one done for normal swings) and let's say for the sake of argument that is 50 (pulled entirely from my proverbials) then the resulting swing is calculated against a dodge of 60.
What say we all?
I like the idea of have accuracy vs ac, then accuracy vs dodge, it still gives advantages to chars that can get high ac and high dodge, maybe your ac can modify your chance to dodge, the higher it is the less chance it is to dodge, so that its hard to get passed your ac, but then a little more easier to get passed the dodge.
I can tell you right now as a witchunter the current dodge settings don't seem right in the slightest. Go look at some of the posts I've shown in the captures section. People with even halfway decent dodge gear have around 95% dodge against me even if I'm 10 levels above them.