Paradigm MUD Forums

Not really a bug, but what does everyone think of changing things so the toplist updates in time increments instead of realtime.

This would prevent people from being about to track another player's exp and easily locate where they are scripting.

I see it as one of those "playing the code vs. playing the game" issues.

Not being able to track exp would give players the chance to be more creative with their scripting locations and make custom loops.

With the item drop hang penalties, it's too simple to track a player's exp and go hang them for a quick two item drop. Because of this, players are less likely to script with their best items equipped. If players were able to be more crafty with their scripting locations, they would more likely script with better equipment on. And then players who want to put in the extra effort of "playing the game" instead of the code, and search around the realm might have the reward of finding someone decked in lims scripting an off-path area and whack them for a well-earned set of gear.

I keep seeing people ask for a time delayed update on the top list.  I realize this would make scripting easier (which is not an arguement for doing it in my opinion) but what do you really gain?

If we set the delay to 15 minutes, then it takes someone 15 minutes to find you versus 1 minute.  Woo  yeah you made some big headway with that.

In my opinion the top list should update in real time and make a sysop setting to simply not display the exp on the list and to remove the exp from the interface that drives the player manager for accounts that are not verified.

It wouldn't be a time delay, but more of a "refresh" every 5/10/15 minutes.

It would update with the total amount of experience earned in that time period, not each individual kill.

It just makes people have to play the game, to hunt for other players by running around the realm and not by math.

It's more of "okay lets go see who's down in red dragons..."

And less of "okay lets see where so-and-so is scripting..."

The bots they are using to exp track you now will be reprogrammed and working exactly as they do now within 2 days.  You won't gain anything except the interval of the first refresh cycle.  That's the entire point I was trying to make.

Gardner that is untrue. While xp will still be trackable with 15 minute jumps lets look at it like this, as a solo player making 100k per hour in small pyramid.

at the current way the top list is now you would see after every kill the players xp jump up 750 per kill, that limits it down to 8 different monsters that are 750 xp if he's solo but only 1 in an area that only has mobs worth 750 xp per kill, has to be small pyramid. You might also come to the conclusion that he is getting 1500k a pop with 2 people which could be you have to check a few more places but its easily checkable.

If XP updates every 15 minutes that means all you are going to see is jumps of about 25k every 15 minutes, now you know this person may be making 100k per hour and you are going to go check all theplaces that make 100k an hour with xp jumps in 25k (if they are all even) but it really doesnt narrow it down like it does now and no program will really help narrow it down to an exact spot like you can do now.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Yeah exactly what Duhh says...  A player can speed up / slow down his exp rate from time to time, all you're going to see is that he made, for example, 34,500 exp in 15 minutes and have no idea in what increments. If a person is scripting an area with monsters that vary in exp it will be extremely hard to figure out how the exp was earned.

All it takes is a few well placed bots and you'll be tracked within 30 minutes tops.  I've seen it done far to many times for yall to tell me it's not doable.

I already explained an elementary solution to this problem:

make it so that only the first 2 integers of your exp show up:

If you have 145670 exp, it shows your exp as 140000.

If you have 32,240,530 exp, shows you as 32,000,000

Wiill be impossible to even track exp/hr this way once people get high up.

I understand the problem and I'm down with implementing a fix.  It can be configurable in the .ini file, so we'll prolly use this feature in the pvp realm and keep the non-pvp realm with realtime updates.

Vote/decide on a fix and I'll implement it.  It would probably take less than 30 minutes to implement.  We do actually already have a time period for updating the top list, it's just VERY short. ;)

What about giving mobs a range of exp you could possibly get.  And you get a random amount of exp in that range?  Say, if I was scripting salamanders.. for a salamander kill I could get anywhere between 1250 to 1750  .. or a different range.. whatever.   But that would make it harder to track if you just look at the top list.

ok then Gard, so if you knew i was making 37k/hr (based off including a delay in TOP list) would you know where i am?

and then if you knew i was making 200exp per kill, based off of realtime display, would you know where i am easier?

Rain

I have a feeling this "bot" that Gard is referring to has something to do with his Player Manager program.  Either that or the top list off the Greatermud site.  And if so I think it needs to be addressed...Gard, you seem to know about this bot that people are using but at the same time you don't seem to care that they're doing it.  Why hasn't it really ever been a hot topic until now?  This is just another way to "work the system", as Oolong likes to call it.  And it's been ignored simply because you believe they'll find other ways around it to track experience.

Gard- "All it takes is a few well placed bots and you'll be tracked within 30 minutes tops.  I've seen it done far to many times for yall to tell me it's not doable."

I'm curious where you've seen this done before?  Has Greatermud used a delayed update to top list before?  And even still, it's not as easily trackable if it' isn't updated instantly per each kill / exp tick like it is now.  Sure people will be able to track exp/hr but it'll surely make it more difficult, specially if a person chooses to script an area that mobs give different experience as opposed to scripting an area where mobs all give the same experience.

My opinion is to make the top list update once a day, like at cleanup.

What is this "bot"?

When we talk about a delayed up date are we saying:

A) I kill a monster worth 100 xp and in 15 minutes you see that 100 xp added to my overall exp.

B) I kill 15 100 xp monsters in 15 minutes and you see a jump of 1500 every 15 minutes that im killing?

Quote from: Mersinary on November 28, 2010, 05:48:05 PM

Gard- "All it takes is a few well placed bots and you'll be tracked within 30 minutes tops.  I've seen it done far to many times for yall to tell me it's not doable."

I'm curious where you've seen this done before?  Has Greatermud used a delayed update to top list before?  And even still, it's not as easily trackable if it' isn't updated instantly per each kill / exp tick like it is now.  Sure people will be able to track exp/hr but it'll surely make it more difficult, specially if a person chooses to script an area that mobs give different experience as opposed to scripting an area where mobs all give the same experience.

I haven't done anything about it because I can not tell who is and who is not using these bots.  They are not related to the player manager, they are using just the top player list inside the game for the most part.  Most of these are very simplistic bots that strictly track exp earned. 

So we set the update frequency to... let's stick with the 15 minute example.  So every 15 minutes I see player x has earned 3k exp.  There are several places he could be, and I'd have to go check each one of them.  This is what everyone wants.   Now obviously I do not want to spend my time hunting you down or I would not have made a lame ass exp tracker to do it.  So what do I do now?  Well that's easy.  I park a few hidden characters in various places in the realm who do nothing but tell me which direction someone went when they left the room over broadcasts/gangpaths.

So

Player zzyxz earns 3k every 15 minutes, and my zombie bot in Silvermere reported seeing him going N from town square 1 hour ago.  Now how many places do I have to go looking for him?

See how easy that was?

Quote from: y2duhh on November 28, 2010, 06:48:20 PM
When we talk about a delayed up date are we saying:

A) I kill a monster worth 100 xp and in 15 minutes you see that 100 xp added to my overall exp.

B) I kill 15 100 xp monsters in 15 minutes and you see a jump of 1500 every 15 minutes that im killing?

B.

So a bot is just a dupe sitting somewhere?

why not just remove top 10? that seems to be the easiest solution to me

Quote from: Hydroponic on November 28, 2010, 07:13:22 PM
So a bot is just a dupe sitting somewhere?

It doesn't even have to be just sitting somewhere.  All it has to do is notify me if it sees someone, and if it saw them move, what direction they went.

Quote from: Lucifer on November 29, 2010, 12:31:19 AM
i cant bite my tongue anymore.  i voted no leave it the fuck alone leave it as it is.

changing shit around to protect the scripters, the game was made that way and ppl take advantage of tracking exp so what anyone can do it, dont change mud this muds already fucked up enuff.

if u wanna do something good for the mud and for the ppl, ditch the 2 item drop.

just let me paint u a picture imagine u setup a poll remove live updates on the top lists or remove the 2 item drop, u better believe the 2 item drop will win by a landslide.

its a god given right to track exp, it still requires math.  i once had to track thundergod and i had to track him in incriments of 6 cuz he was scripting with his 5 dupes, and eventually we figured out where they were, u know how fuckin hard that was? it took effort.

its the way the game was built so leave it alone, it wasnt designed to be used to track exp, but it is what it is.
some genius figured out the idea of exp tracking and now ur gonna take it away from us?

Take everything you just said, swap "item drop" for "tracking exp" and your arguement has no more merit than you are giving to their arguement.  You losing your gear is a big deal to you, them losing exp is a big deal to them.  Personally I would not choose to waste time on this right now but it's not my call.

I could really care less about anybody sitting in an area and announcing over br/bg where I'm at and which direction I move in...I can do that simply with a lame message/response in megamud...And I think it's fairly irrelevant regarding tracking exp from top list, I don't even feel this has anything to do with the topic at hand.  Except figuring out how much exp per kill a person is making, and you send a few of your 15 dupes to each area that monsters give so and so experience, trying to find that person.  I dunno man, I feel you're totally off point talking about people sitting in TS and announcing a person is leaving in whatever direction.  With how tracking works on here (track (player), not tracking exp) is even alot easier then tracking exp to find a person.

So I dunno..What's easier and more feasible.  Hitting top 10 and how much exp is gained each from each kill, or tracking exp every 15 minutes to see how much exp is gained over a 15 minute period?  Especially if you're scripting an area that has 3 or more monsters that give different experience.  You're basically only able to try to track them by exp/hr by area.  That can vary by level/class/gear/and if you have healing or not.  Theres alot of variances that can determine exp/hr by area, not all classes are gonna make the same exp/hr in the same area.

Hell...I dont even see why this is a poll.  This should be a given.  The game shouldn't be based on playing like this.  Sure top rank should be a feature and people shouldnt have to worry about others exploiting ways to find where a person is scripting in game just because it's easier.  Everyone uses megamud as is and that's about the easiest the game should be with it.  Megamud basically is majormud/greatermud, nobody wants to sit around hours on end going to kill bosses over and over just to try and get the best exp/hr by hand.  If that was the case then this would/should be a non-scripting board.  And then we wouldn't have to worry as much about people coming to kill scripts cause atleast then we'd be at keys for the most part and possibly be somewhat ready for it.

Also...Where did this "bot" mess even come from?  I can't even say I've heard of anyone on here using some outside source regarding some program tracking peoples experience...Just curious how you know of this and what exactly does it do?  How do you know of this "bot" being used but you dont know who is using it?...I've always tracked experience I guess the old fashion way I guess:

Setting an event to: top 1^M
with a message/response: when "1. President             Ninja      the United States   {1}" = "br {1}^M"
and do the math whenever there is a exp change...

Quote from: pentagruel on November 27, 2010, 10:41:26 PM
I already explained an elementary solution to this problem:

make it so that only the first 2 integers of your exp show up:

If you have 145670 exp, it shows your exp as 140000.

If you have 32,240,530 exp, shows you as 32,000,000

Wiill be impossible to even track exp/hr this way once people get high up.

I think I have the best solution, but it isnt even an option?  Or does my solution fall under remove top lists?


And Gardner, your idea of setting up shadow bots in different places in realm is kinda hard especially if you goto do it in a place like temple in jungle where people often search.   Plus, there are many obscure places in mod9 that noone would ever find you without being able to track exp.  My idea is equivalent to not having a top list but people can still see where they are ranked.  Best of both worlds.

Quote from: pentagruel on November 29, 2010, 03:36:37 PM
I think I have the best solution, but it isnt even an option?  Or does my solution fall under remove top lists?

Whatever solution we apply to the realm will be applied to the player manager as well.  I don't want distorted information being sent through the player manager.  That is why I did not include it as an option.

Does the top command trigger a query for real-time data? or is the top list result cached?

Quote from: Darmius on November 29, 2010, 04:55:45 PM
Does the top command trigger a query for real-time data? or is the top list result cached?

Currently it is real time data.

Quote from: Mersinary on November 29, 2010, 01:25:18 AM
Also...Where did this "bot" mess even come from?  I can't even say I've heard of anyone on here using some outside source regarding some program tracking peoples experience...Just curious how you know of this and what exactly does it do?  How do you know of this "bot" being used but you dont know who is using it?...I've always tracked experience I guess the old fashion way I guess:

I know of at least 3 different exp tracker bots that have been written.  Mostly because someone has let it slip that they were using it.  Since I can't emulate players, I can not tell exactly who is using it.  It's all good though.  Nobody seems to believe that there are any, or that they could possibly be any good.  So I won't bother bringing it up again.

I exp track your asses all the time, everyone in the top 100 at least.  Gard is right, it doesn't matter what they do, we'll still find you, if it takes a few minutes or a few hours, there are only so many places you people will script and you never change it up.

Cache the top list. Sync on every 'top' with a 60 second lockout.  During each sync, when each record is updated. Have a % that the record update doesn't actually occur.

Let the user configure the lockout and % drop.

Without a constant time, the result from xp tracking could be fuzzed enough to make it unreliable.

Top experience should be hidden.  

All the cool boards do it.. ;)


...or update at cleanup.  It would be like the BCS polls, everyone waitin for the new ranks to come out at cleanup.


Time delay is lame ... Removing the last few numbers isn't a bad idea, but would still look 'broken' IMHO.   I do agree that the top list was not intended to give people an advantage in finding peoples scripting location, but rather fuel competition.   I feel that the way it currently is set that it actually lowers the level of competition.   Too many long-time "GreaterMud Fans" know all the little quarks and exploits, and it's discouraging for any players that might be mildly interested in GMud.

I think keep scores on a 15 minute time delay,

EXP tracking is lame. It's easy to do. It takes the skill out of finding people and I'm sure this method was never intended by the original programmers.