Backstab and dodge should work differently

[El_Jefe]

Long ago, bs'ing and pvp were entwined with great bbs's.  Sure there were ultra afk muds where people lost gear and didnt care, hoarded gear and never would admit it and no sysop was helpful and no one really talked.  A lot of those people still play mud.......

Well, the rest of the crowd enjoys pvp.  Pvp is about bs'ing.  I mentioned this before, but I dont think it's being addressed properly. 

One thing that makes pvp boring is going up against ninja's, stacked dodge evil bards or regular mystics.   Back when pvp existed and the people who didnt use bugs but fought at all levels, the thing that became a problem and was never addressed was the bs = regular attack when checked against dodge.

BS's should be dodged less frequently than they can be in regularmud.  Dodge is a defense against it, ok, but 3-4 wiffs out of 5 bs's is a broken pvp session.  It takes no skill to have your 80% dodge kick in.  It takes skill to move and sneak around or use spells, or use diplomacy. (or smack talk which is even better)  Dodge should have half the effect vs a bs roll. 

There is no logical reason why someone would be able to dodge someone sneaking up on them and then striking them.  You cannot see the move to attack in mud, you cannot see any of it.  Technically, in a non-fictional, non-fantasy perspective, you shouldnt be able to ever dodge a backstab.  However, being that dodge classes have little to no AC rating, this would be really bad for the game.  However, so is a guy who has no skills who just spams on a macro "ju focker" "ju focker" until it connects because they cant be bs'd.  thats gay and could be "coded" easily to not be this case.

[The Crazy Animal]

Technically, in a non-fictional, non-fantasy perspective, you shouldnt be able to ever dodge a backstab.

For the most part I agree with that... Though I think their needs to be some chance for a save against a backstab since unbeatable attacks are not wanted... And I'm not talking to the point that it is now but based an actual stat checks and tests...

The first test I would suggest is against the attackers stealth roll vs the defenders perception roll.. Which then could trigger an direct agility test "maybe agility & intel ie if they are to stupid to move or slow type of thing" between the two players to see if they can dodge it prior to any actual dodge roll. Basicly little added tests like these could mitigrate the chance of dodging down to a resonable level while still placing emphisis on the character stats which is an important thing to keep in mind...

[El_Jefe]

perception is supposed to be a check on bs damage. 

it probably should be more important than dodge.  being that perception tends to be higher in a few sub 100 strength races, I think it would make sense then and add balance.   A gaunt with snake earrings and aler on all the time should be very difficult to sneak up on.

[The Crazy Animal]

perception is supposed to be a check on bs damage. 

it probably should be more important than dodge.  being that perception tends to be higher in a few sub 100 strength races, I think it would make sense then and add balance.   A gaunt with snake earrings and aler on all the time should be very difficult to sneak up on.

I'm telling you mmud fakes the test... And its supposed to be a test against the sneakers stealth not damage...

and while I'm at it a gaunt ones max perception is: 132.5 and Half-Ogers have the lowest which is: 62.5 every other race falls in between that.. However most closer to 95-110.. I've actually calculated each one but I don't feel like posting them...

[El_Jefe]

I think for Perception to be written effectively in order to balance races and classes in pvp, the effect of having more intellect or more charm should be more dramatic on the perception level.

Gaunts should get like 160 perception at max stats and ogres still 62.   Vast majority of ogres use raw AC, hps and High dr builds to negate a backstab.  Same goes for most Orcs, dwarves and kangs.   the rest of the crowd, with the exception of halflings, have very high levels of perception.  Dark elf, elf, gaunt and even nekojin have high perception.   Hm.  More I think about it, the more it works.  Look at this:

Points agreed upon that are also easily written into the pvp version of Vitoc's mud "clone" *cough cough*

1. Dodge shouldnt be an 80% negation on a stealthed backstab.  It should be decently less vs stealthed, first strike, regular pvp bs's.
2. Perception should be a decently strong stat in defense of bs's

Mud is set up for this formula as it is.  Intellect is a strong stat for Half elf, Elf, Delf and Goblin.  These races also dodge well.  So, they will be quite decent at defending against backstabs.  Gaunt doesnt dodge that well compared to the others mentioned, but it's intellect is severe.  It also has +perception so that adds to the chance to defend against a backstab.  Mages that have low health often have high intellect.  If perception was a stronger stat, this would be great for a mage to have.   There could possibly be +perception on more cloth items or mage items for added pvp defense.  Just a little bit is all one would need to increase the roll against a backstab.

Halfling and Neko's dodge abilities are great.  They are the top 2 dodgers and should always be.   Their low health is compensated by their high ability to dodge.  This part of the defense is the most complicated to figure out.

How much dodge should exist at lower, mid, upper and super upper levels to defend against backstabs?

Some people would say that super upper levels should defened easily against backstabs via a high level of dodge.   I think this is false thinking.   A super high level that dodges well, namely: Bard, Mystic and Ninja, all have the ability to kill in one round of toe to toe fighting with their super high level of crits and crit damage.   If one lets these become invincible to pvp, that would be stupid and negate any balance at all the levels.  Instead, the defense against backstab should be item and class based, using the rating for dodge and not allowing for level as a defending quality.   (Like it is now)  The difference would be the big overall reduction in chance to defend against a stealth backstab from level 1-75.   

I really think that a 40-50% reduction in dodge chance vs bs would make for a really interesting realm.    BS is only one strike and it is done by weaker classes.   Ranger is the odd exception to this but really, a ranger can probably just attack at upper levels and one round most people.  It sorta doesnt fit into the model, but that's ok as they have a 250% chart  and have to wear dinky leather!

Armour class is armour class.  Most of the helms that are good are -perception.  Star helm is the only bizarre exception to this rule but makes for some nice pvp changeups under a model that uses perception as a good defender.  Not much has to change about ac and backstabing.

NOTE:  Bs accuracy in a weapon and in other gear must be a very strong factor in the equation for this whole system to work.  Right now, +bs accuracy is doing little in the beta version of Vitoc's mud.    The choice between +10 bs acc weapon and lower damage vs huge damage and -10 bs accuracy must show up in a pvp setting.