Racial stealth vs Class Stealth

[The Crazy Animal]

This is something that I always thought needed to be fixed as it removes quite a few possible race/class combinations from being anything more than boredom relievers in.

To me I used to enjoy coming up with odd characters Halfling Witchunters, Elf Paladins, Dwarf Rangers, and trying to see how they turn out. The one thing that I constantly found as a problem with in these strange combination was how well their stealth and backstab worked.

Over the years I?ve thought about this off and on should these two types of stealth be treated equal or are they different entirely? If they are the same and merely a duplicated skill then maybe they should be devalued a little in their duplicity so that the odd character combinations are able to make better use of their skill. If they are different which is what I?ve come to think then what individual effect could be give to make them more unique and useful to characters that only have one type of stealth?

TCA

Edit:? ------------------------------? Further food for thought.

Racial or innate stealth:
Racial stealth I?m going to call ?Innate Stealth? because it is a trait of a racial group most. Secondly, I realize that the races that get stealth in mmud are of the magical sort.

Class or Tactical Stealth:
Class stealth I?m going to call, Tactical Stealth because it is a learned skill.

Now the first thing that I thought that might be interesting to do is give each type of stealth a special attack. This would provide the basic diversification that would help make the singular possession of the ability more worthwhile.

Innate Stealth Special attack:
Since Innate stealth is a semi magical/ability that could allow some one to get the upper hand in battle I thought it should relate to this theme by being simple.

Surprise Attack ? Short name ?SA? ? I?ve had a few thoughts on how this system could work but haven?t settled on one yet:
Starts with Automatic combat initiative win. Followed by a reduced swing rate with Dmg bonus Modifier followed with a chance effect for (stun or knockdown type effect) effectiveness would be influenced on a character str,agi,int, and stealth.? The special attack would last for a number of rounds based on the characters level and stealth.

Tactical Stealth special attack:
I think should remain similar to what it was in MMud the classic back stab.

Characters with Dual Stealth:
I was thinking that with the gain of two Special attacks for characters with both stealths we could drop a portion of the dual stealth gain rate so that the stealth skill levels balance out a little.

[DeathCow]

I don't know that I've ever heard a complaint that halfling witchunters are too weak.  I mean sure its true, but I thought it was just a given.

I could see maybe having some sort of combat enhancement for having stealth but I don't think it should be a new command.

As for backstabs, they really need some reworking.  We'll have to take a closer look at backstab damage/acc once we have a fully functional realm up and going. 

[The Crazy Animal]

You know of course why nobody complains about them is because almost no one plays them. Why is that? It is because they barely function compared to way normally played combos do. Over the years I?ve meet a few other people that have experimented with odd race/class combos and there are some fairly standard complaints.

The better armour and weapons tend to be too heavy to use effectively, Stealth and BS doesn?t work unless you?re a class that gets perfect stealth. If wearing better armour there encumbrance is to low carry anything else, Even if you get perfect stealth your backstab always sucks.

Being that stealth is something that both the classes and races have I figured that might be the key to making these odd combos more playable. The only other thing I can think of that might help is race dependant exp tables that would change depending on the class the race picks. I don?t know if I?m alone in thinking all of the race/class combos should be fairly playable.

TCA

[Bong]

Picking a class with low strength for a warrior, low int as a mage, or low wisdom as a priest isn't going to snag you a powerful char. Just like picking a race without stealth isn't going to help you make a sneaker. Now, in the case of the former, the char. will be playable, but you aren't going to be nearly as strong without the stat(s) you need. The latter provides other inconveniences. My mage can stealth if I choose racestealth, but likely won't get the extra hp's from choosing another race. My kang ninja is going to have a low backstab, but can wield the larger weapons that will allow me to outdamage it on average anyways. Why this might prove to suck in PvP, it's a choice that was made when the char. was created. A tank with low strength is going to have to go the way of dodge and damage, picking and choosing what heavy piece(s) to wear. He's also lost the ability to wield some of the heavy weapons that would make up for his low backstab. Yet, he'd still be considered playable, but he won't be scripting the same areas a tank race would be able to. I completely agree that the balance currently in place in mmud is whack, but I believe the foundation has already been set.

Also, after reading the preview, I do realize that I'm becoming a no-man, and not really providding many new ideas. I'm comfortable in the role, as there aren't many players (non-editors) posting here, but I want to make sure others don't stop bringing the new concepts and ideas just because I'm looking at the storm cloud, and not the silver-lining.

[The Crazy Animal]

Its ok bong I don?t really think your saying no just pointing out the other side of things which in most cases is more helpful then a simple no or yes.

I?m aware of the trade offs but one of the major problems is stealth and how it is treated in its singular state. Why does classes with stealth get a stealth quest for perfect stealth and races with stealth do not? Why do stealth classes tend to favor making good bases for these odd combinations? Should players be penalized for not having duplicity in a non-variable assigned ability, which was the focus of my question in the first post.

Taking it a little further:

The biggest problems lay in the classes that don?t get a lot of things to make up for the loss of their key attributes. Of course you don?t expect every class and race combination to end in a powerful character but you should expect their to be a good balance between what you loose and what you gain and right now there really isn?t. If all the abilities were equal trade offs, then there would be no problem. However, right now AC/DR for dodge is not an equal trade, Not all stealth classes have all weapons like ninjas, and Not all classes can make up for the trade off with the blasting power of mages.

This is why I think perhaps there should be exp rates for races based on what class they become. A Halfling is going to have more problem being a warrior then he is going to be a thief. A Dwarf is going to have less problem being a paladin then he will a ninja. A half-ogre is going to have more problems being a mystic than he will a witchunter. I think this would be a huge step in balancing the problem but won?t fix everything. To do that I think stealth and bs and maybe dodge needs to be taken into account.

TCA

[Rhinehold]

There are some very good points and argurments here. 

The only thing I would add is this.  Innate Stealth could mean that you always get first attack, but you can not back stab.  Only tactical stealth(class) should be allowed to BS. 

Also Innate Stealth should allow you to stay perfectly hidden when just sitting in a room.  This is much more passive.