Backstab damage should be increased

[El_Jefe]

I can think of no other factor more simple, more easily programmed into the game that would change mud to a thing of choices vs tank class and tank race than this.

Make backstab damge 50% more than it does currently.  Critting for 290 and bs'ing for 430 on the same character should not occur.  Smashing for 500 but yet bs'ing for that or less should not happen in the game ever.

BS'ing is ONE shot.  Smashing is every round.  One shot on all the classes that have low hps is a nice luck roll to have rolled.  Every game possible that I can think of has a stealth first slice round as being incredibly destructive.  From D and D to stupid assed Halo, the backstab is always the luck shot that wrecked.

Stealth races already are hobbled in many ways.  Ninja is the only one that has a low table and very strong rounds.  However, even if most did 50% more on a bs per level than they do now, this wouldnt make them overpowered as it probably would never outdamage their two-handed quick and deadly damage.  However, for other classes like thief which has no particular advantage, their bs would be kinda cool, and for classes like Gypsy which have really steep exp charts, well, they would enjoy a nice bonus to having such a huge chart. 

It looks like my ninja in vitoc's mud gains 5 bs max per level.  I think.  It has been several days since it was up so I cant remember the exact number.  7-8 a level would make a really nice opener and also, most importantly:

Balance pvp.   Smashers would not be better than bs'rs.  Metro is fucking retarded.  Even though it was obvious that it made a stupid afk moron tank a great pvp'r, it never changed it in any way.  They kept adding little bonuses to BS min/max which are nice, but those bonuses areonly only on upper level limited items.  Really, what pvp is going on after 40th on almost any regular, paid board?  Some of the most major boosts to bs damage are on NINJA.  the only freakin class that doesnt need bs damage.   Leather gets dick.  Soulblighter and some pieces can raise it along with quest cloaks, but the number should be like +100 max more at upper levels.

Next thing to comment on in Vitoc's mud is BS accuracy.  It should be increased, the chance to hit on a double stealth character like goblin ninja with near max agility at 30th is too low a chance on crap monsters.  It should be 98% on monsters below 50 ac at some point near 30th level with +30 bs accuracy from items/weapons. It isnt yet though, it is more like 72-78% which doesnt make sense for the meanwhile.

Oh, another thing, having STRENGTH be a factor of bs accuracy is really moronic.  Deathcow conjectured that bs accuracy in regular mud is also related to regular accuracy.  Now, I havent seen this be the case for myself, but in general this hould not be the case.  All but a few bs weapons are 1 handed and lightweight.  Bs'ing with a -20 bs accuracy weapon is kinda dumb unless you have a lot of confidence in your opponents ineptness.   That being said, agility should be the prime factor.  intellect and charm could help as well, but +stealth is raised by either already. 

Stealth in regularmud increases min/max bs damage.  It is confusing to how it works if you put on a plate armour and try and bs, I am not sure how this works. I know someone mentioned something about this a week ago, but I do not know how it is working in Vitoc's mud.  Well, +stealth should increase bs accuracy slightly.  ther are many sources of +Stealth and levels do this as well.  It could become overpowered with having it do too much bs accuracy, but it does help out the stealth class + Stealth Race combo choices.  Your guy will always have like 30 more stealth or something like that, or making a neko warrior will gain some additional bs accuracy, etc. pretty self explanatory.

make stealth pimper and more lethal.

[The Crazy Animal]

The problem really is that its for the most part a linear formula.... While theres a few variables that change the rate of growth it's strictly between a range of tolerances which makes it rather tricky to just boost damage like that.. If you boost damage across the bored it then gets overpowered in the starting levels "I know everyone forgets about them"... If you do it in stages via quests then you end up with the pvp ranges below those quests getting slaughtered.

The reason you see around +5 per level is because that's the avg hp change for classes per level. Its a fairness thing that was done that way for a balanced reason. I know you think it sucks but it would suck more for the halfling mages if it was raised since it would incrementally outpace their ability to gain the hp's needed to survive one bs hit...

What really needs to happen for stealth classes and all special combat moves is there needs to be some type of combat maneuver pool that limits the rate that these actions can be performed. There is no reason why there can't be a mid round backstab and something like this would help balance these power moves between tanks and stealth classes.

Secondly really there should be more then one type of backstab... I know some people like playing the game because its so simple and mindless at points but its just silly to think that one combat move needs to last from the start of the game to the end of the game. And that it can be continually tweaked to hell to keep it balanced. There should be a number of them that vary in cost to preform, accuracy, and damage... These should be spread out over a large number of levels and should have fairly straight forward growth ranges with some damage range overlap.

I know some people will not like the idea of things like smash being limited to the size of a maneuver pool but if you think about it, it makes sense and the growth of that movement pool is just a new place to watch your character grow. As well as it opening up the way for some down and dirty street fighting moves like takedowns and knockdowns, foot sweeps and pomel blows, midround backstabs.... Its really the only way I can think of bring back the fun in pvping and make things like bs and smash be more balanced.

Stealth in regularmud increases min/max bs damage.  It is confusing to how it works if you put on a plate armour and try and bs, I am not sure how this works. I know someone mentioned something about this a week ago, but I do not know how it is working in Vitoc's mud.

Its not confusing really... and it works the same way.. The only difference is that your seeing the actual value the game engine uses in the calculation for the damage on the stat page rather then the total value before any encum penalities...

[Gardner Denver]

What really needs to happen for stealth classes and all special combat moves is there needs to be some type of combat maneuver pool that limits the rate that these actions can be performed. There is no reason why there can't be a mid round backstab and something like this would help balance these power moves between tanks and stealth classes.

Actually the basic mechanics for this are already in play in Mmud on the monster side.  Ever tangle with the Fallen Angel?  Will bs you multiple times through out the fight.  Seen it, died from it a time or two.

[The Crazy Animal]

Actually the basic mechanics for this are already in play in Mmud on the monster side.  Ever tangle with the Fallen Angel?  Will bs you multiple times through out the fight.  Seen it, died from it a time or two.

Actually the game mechanics are already fully in, but in a different form right now... you know "mana pool and spells" it would just be a duplication of that function altered slighty with out the magical conotations that all characters with a combat rating would have. Once that happens its just a matter of creating the attack formulas using a number of physical and secondary stats and then attributing them with messages and maneveur pool costs and those fun little details...  Its not a over the top idea based on the existing systems in the game...

In this case MA would be subbed out for SC, and mana would get a different name... The only thing that makes me worry is megamud with an solution like this... but since it can handle custom statlines to a point there might be a work around for it...

To keep things like they were though a normal bs would then become something someone with a combat-1 at level 1 can regen enough points for once per average combat session lets say in a 5 room light walk.. each combat rating might regen a little quicker... And it would probably have to just default to normal combat if you didn't have enough points for a maneuver with a message...

The other thing that would need to be implemented is some type of timing rules where as you could stipulate the when and where these manuever can be done... ie. one shot @ start combat... one shot @ mid-combat... continual @ start combat continual @ mid-combat... Requires sneaking, Requires hiding...

And lots of other little bits and bobs could be tossed in here as well that could make classes like theives, ninjas, and mystics more interesting...

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BTW - What your seeing with the fallen angel is a non-magical spell actually rather then a combat swing from a weapon... Monster to player and monster to monster combat is different then normal player to monster or pvp combat.. But ya for the most part we'd be doing the same type of thing changing some combat moves to non-magical spells...

[El_Jefe]

Gypsy
Bard
Missionary
Thief

They arent played much compared to the other classes but they have backstab ability.  They need to do more initial damage.  No fool sits there after a bs and continues to fight if they are one of these 4 classes.   Having +8 per level bs damage does not at all overpower them.  A warrior level 30 is qd with a bunch of weapons and can have on a cats eye, gold jeweled ring and a bunch of +max stuff.  They can near round an equal level character on that list.  The next strike is not normally a toe to toe one, the thief breaks combat and sneaks in for another shot.  That's pvp.  It isnt simple actually, it's really kinda hard and super fast/twitchy.  By 50th level, a bs should come close to killing.  A mage will die from a player just swinging it if a 500 bs can kill it.   what character cant do a 500 round at upper levels against a 3 DR mage?   Mages are hard to bs at times as well.  There could be more counter bs items like +perception stuff that is useful.  high armour and high perception help negate bs accuracy right?

[The Crazy Animal]

Gypsy, Bard, Missionary, Thief: They arent played much compared to the other classes but they have backstab ability.  They need to do more initial damage.  No fool sits there after a bs and continues to fight if they are one of these 4 classes.  Having +8 per level bs damage does not at all overpower them.

Its those same classes which when raising the level gain on bs are going to be negatively effected as well. They don't get more then +8 hp per level and will quickly end up falling behind in the area of BS vs HP...

A warrior level 30 is qd with a bunch of weapons and can have on a cats eye, gold jeweled ring and a bunch of +max stuff.  They can near round an equal level character on that list.

Warrior's are combat 4 with any weapon, armour what do you expect when you bring them up toe to toe against the heavier restricted classes.... However the problem isn't solved when you only look at one side of the problem ie sneakers vs tanks... And certainly not by just tossing more damage at the problem since that compounds the issues when looking at sneakers vs sneakers and gasp sneakers vs casters and other ultralights...

The next strike is not normally a toe to toe one, the thief breaks combat and sneaks in for another shot.  That's pvp. It isnt simple actually, it's really kinda hard and super fast/twitchy.

Then why are you trying to make it only last one hit.... Is it because you want to be like the one round tanks, perhaps remove the skill from it, negate the experience of the kinda hard and super fast/twitchy action from it....???

To me because I've been playing so long and still remember what it was like logging in with a 1200 baud modem the problem isn't the damage it hinges on that chance to escape for a second attempt or if luck has it a third strike... When the connection speed was slower you actually had more of a natural time span to react in and to leave the room and come back in. With the connection speed being as quick as it is now you don't have that any more and the problem becomes its harder and harder to get those second attempts in that are the ones that make the kills possible.. actually at 1200 you didn't even need to leave the room you could still pull off the break hide bs routine at a fair success...

The problem is that to pull off these guerilla style attack you need some way to increase the time-span in those moments where the the stealth attacker can pull off a second and third attempt. There's an easy way to do that and it comes out of the confusion/stun/knockdown type of effect that already exists in some portions of the game mechanics. high damage single hits just needs some type of shock and awe effect.

Lets look the possible way that could work from the level of damage on a player
since pvp should last more then one round we should use max hp as a main variable, and lets say we use a races health stat as a resistance factor for this... Got that? Ok now in creating a fair way to trigger this shock and awe effect lets say when a character gets damaged for a large percentage of their max hp. Since I would key this in for the potential for 3 strikes I'd say 33%. so that would roughly be 334 damage on a 1000hp player to gen the effect and they they get a chance to resist the effect. The resist chance on the effect if its based on HP would be (Health - 50) which would make all but the half-ogre resist between 40 to 60% of the time.

Now the effect needs to basically pause the opponents ability to do two things run and attack so this could easily fall into the confuse value 45 - 75 ability type effect. And on top of that the effect needs to be timed for just enough ticks to let a player with a bit a skill to break leave and re-engage just a little easier..

By 50th level, a bs should come close to killing.

Not really the gain of hp to bs should be fairly relative so between a Lvl 50 and a lvl 50 they should be just as even as they were at 30... the only difference should be between say a lvl 50 and a lvl 40.... You have to remember its not just your character that improves over the span of levels but the opponent as well....

There could be more counter bs items like +perception stuff that is useful.  high armour and high perception help negate bs accuracy right?

Perception only helps spot the sneak and really mmud kind of faked that too.... High AC does effect bs accuracy though...

As far as counter bs items go I like the idea of them but they would need to be lightly implemented since they could easily kill the abilities of stealth classes... If that shock and awe thing were to go in I would probably go for something effecting that rather then the entire bs... since that would just increase the challenge rather then negate the skill...

[El_Jefe]

It should take two hits to kill the same level player.

not like 3-4

[The Crazy Animal]

It should take two hits to kill the same level player.

not like 3-4

And people wonder why people don't bother pvp at high levels...

[El_Jefe]

because they hoard items and cannot deal with anything less than 1.5million an hour scripting gear.

[The Crazy Animal]

because they hoard items and cannot deal with anything less than 1.5million an hour scripting gear.

Hoarders are hoarders that has little to do with the lack of pvp at high levels. People don't pvp at high levels because it doesn't have the same thrill that it does at low levels and thats mostly because it only takes one or two rounds.. It's damage overkill...

[El_Jefe]

There is a sick thrill from doing it if you can both A, build a character that doesnt need 4-5 limited items and still compete, and B, have the balls to die. 

I played on my old old board with 50+ guys and we would slaughter eachother.  it was a lot of fun causing others pain.

[The Crazy Animal]

There is a sick thrill from doing it if you can both A, build a character that doesnt need 4-5 limited items and still compete, and B, have the balls to die. 

It should be fun and thrilling even if you need those limiteds... Seriously though its much more fun when its cat and mouse like with slim get aways and a sense of building excitement when you mount your attacks... You know when you actually have some time to actually try to out wit and skill the opponent. However you can't have that if the other plays die on the second hit..

"Theres no reason to read a book if the only pages you are going to read are the first and last..."