Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)

[The Crazy Animal]

Bank Tax ? A good way to encourage players not to hoard their wealth is to set up methods of automatically deducting from it. This enforces a use it or loose it mentality.  Since most players enjoy the relative safety of banks, most players keep at least a fair portion of their money in them. So it would be wrong to not suggest that we set up a method of taxing cash in the bank. This could be done a few ways but I would suggest that it is done proportionally to the amount in the bank. I.E players with below a certain amount in a bank aren?t taxed. This method would allow new players and hard luck players to become more established while controlling overly established wealth hoarders.

The Taxes removed from players in this way could then be tracked and used for things like varying the armaments of guards, varying the types of NPCs that spawn in the town.

Bank Fees ? I?d really like banks to be rob able however there needs to be two things that go with this that would generate both the difficulty of the target bank and the security of the money in it. When a bank is successfully robbed it would deduct the amount from all accounts in the bank. However I?d like to give the account holders the ability to protect their account by paying a variable security fee. The more you are willing to pay in to this fee the more the bank is willing to cover your losses and the more difficult it is to rob the bank. The variability of bank security would be based on the total cash collected from all the players with accounts paying this fee and the number of accounts in the bank.

The other bank fee that I see feasible is transfer fees; this would be a bank to bank transfer from a players account at one bank to their own account at another. I spoke about this before so I?m not going to go into much more detail about it.

Tolls ? In MMUD there were a few toll roads that you had to pass by but I think we should expand on this idea and set up District tolls that tax players based on the amount of cash they are carrying. The reason for using this method is that it creates a varying charge which would respond to monetary inflation unlike that of static tolls. Each of these district tolls would have varying rates that they charge. This method then could also benefit us by adding a new strategy into player travel where players would be encouraged to look for the cheapest travel routes around the realm. The other thing we can do with this is potentially create a rob-able toll garrison that?s treasure value is variable and based on player travel habits.

Sales tax ? This would be localized shop tax that accounts for the amount of money in a particular area. For example in mmud silvermere?s surrounding areas included: darkwood forest, elder grove, the slums, the black house, the island.  The tax would more specifically be based on the amount of loose cash and item value in those areas as well as a few other player factors. We would then use this sales tax to artificially increase the price of goods in that area to keep it on par with the wealth of the area. As the wealth of the area is reduced via area usage the tax rate would then be reduced accordingly. This system would provide the game engine the ability to micro balance inflation from a localized point of view. While other engine specific functions move to correct and stabilize the imbalance of wealth at the source of the problem. Note ? It shouldn?t be as severe as: ?Could someone go pick up all the copper please in X local I can?t afford a lantern.?

Similarly to the bank tax this money could be tracked and used to generate and alter game dynamics.

[Secret]

Bank Tax - I like the idea of using money in the bank to furnish the bank area. I just can't imagine there being a good way to implement this. My issue would be why put money in the bank? The only time money really matters is when you really need it to pay tolls / travel items or buy an item / level. In case of tolls / travel items, they are generally so small that your min tax limit wouldn't impact the cost of those items. If this weren't the case , dying, wandering, getting to your script spot would be very annoying.

If you really need to buy an item / spell / level then you would goto the cash areas and just grab it off the ground or script the area. In order to minimize abuse of cash areas, they are usually kept pretty far from the bank. If there is a tax, what would be the point of putting the money in the bank? You would put it in just to have it disappear again. I would only keep a small reserve in the bank and leave the rest on the floor till I needed it for something important.

I guess I just see the tax as either being trivial or a major annoyance. Not much in between. However, a trivial amount for a user could still be alot of money collectively for social use. For example, see the movie "Office Space"

Bank Fees - I really like this idea. I would like to see banks robable. Bank customers should have their money insured up to some configurable percentage (e.g., 90%). If a bank is succesfully robbed, then a robber can get upto XX (e.g.,  10%) of the banks total assets (i.e., player money). The amount the robber would get should be variable. Bank robbers never get all the money in the bank. It would be dependant on whether you rob the safe, a teller, or an ATM? Meaning the more money you wanted, the more risk (guards, ep, etc.) you would have to be willing to take.

Tolls - They pretty much always suck. But what would be cool is if you implemented it the way highways are done. You pay the toll and you fight less monsters or you walk fewer rooms to get to the same spot. Better yet, Teleport. Although teleport is easily abused but neat nonetheless.

Sales Tax - This could be okay if implemented correctly. Native items to an area should not be worth as much in that area. However, the potential for abuse is great unless perfectly architected. It seems like it would be a bigger headache for game designers than its usefulness to players. I know this is slightly different from your main point but your main point seems pretty processing intensive for the value.

[The Crazy Animal]

Bank tax:
Picking money off of ground in cash heavy areas ? One of the ideas we?ve been toying for a good long while involves monsters picking up any left over coins that are on the ground as they regen and move around. Its just one of those things that makes sense if you?re a orc hoard running around pillaging villages for food and money your going to pick up the easy to get cash too. So for players leaving money around on the ground will be come a little less stable resource. This is probably one of the biggest things that will have a positive effect on the economics of the realm.

You?re right there; small taxes like this are not really effectively looked at from the single perspective but across the long term and lots of players they can remove a fair amount of money. And that?s really at the heart of this while trying not to irritate the players by diminishing their individual incomes too much but remove a fair enough portion from all of them that it can make a small difference in the long run.

Bank fees:
Varying the take ? Right; with risk comes potential reward. I was thinking of having it be based on how long you stay in the room. Similar to how GTA vice city worked with robbing stores. The longer you stick around and deal with the regening guards the more money you can collect however at the same time the harder and or more numerous the guards would get as they regen.

Tolls ? tolls are annoying when you don?t carry money around but generally represent the major travel corridors from one area to another. Generally toll roads should be safer then walking the back roads but that?s what you would be paying for. On another note we already are planning alternative faster transportation systems but these will be pay to travel. The griffons are just a small part of it.

Sales tax:
Sales tax would only be on the shop selling end just to clarify that because of that the potential for abuse is minimized. Actually it?s potential for abuse is almost nothing since we only have to deal with the ability for players to fill rooms full of things of value and at which point it would raise the cost of items in that single area. Even though players are able to do this it?s not going to net those doing it positive gains rather it will reduce the surplus of money quicker from that area and possibly others. This will also add a new strategy in the game if you want to hunt for stashes and put hoarded items back into the game look for variations in shop prices. Secondly since monsters will; at some point be able to pick up cash and then later items this will become some what self balancing if left alone long enough.

The value of the idea is to take one more step towards a self balancing economic framework with in the game where things like monetary inflation can be micromanaged by a number of small independent but interconnected goal oriented systems. These types of things are kind of integral to maintaining the value of money in a system that has very little management of liquid assets via the limited availability of resources. I.e. currently an order for 1000 iron suits of amour doesn?t increase the price of iron which in a sound economic model it would.

[Jigga]

I like some of this... Here are a few of my ideas:

For one thing, on my current MMUD board, I just limit the max balance you can have in each bank to say, 90 runic so people can't hoard (sp?) too much cash.

Now maybe don't have the banks be linked like Khaz and Silvermere are now. And have each bank have different 'taxes' or things that they are used for, and the game know how much you paid, and have a benefit.

For example: Say you keep all your money in the Silvermere bank, and it takes out taxes over time to pay for guards and city upkeep. Have the game keep count of how much you've paid over time and every so often, for contributing the to good of the city, you will receive a rare item from the Mayor as a result of gratitude. Have this basically be on a scale... X amount of taxes paid over time earns you X item.

As for the Bank of Rhudaur, the concept would be similar but you'd get an evil item. Also since it is a crooked town, you run the risk of NOT getting an item when you've paid taxes, but if you do... it might be better than the ones you would get in Silvermere.

Another idea... the better the bank (i.e. the harder to get to like Lost City), the higher the taxes.

In order to earn a reward you should have to maintain a balance above a certain amount of money for a certain amount of time.

Like if you keep over 1 runic in the bank (and keep depositing before cleanup because taxes will lower that!) you get a certain item.

Keep a balance over 10 runic... get a better item.

Farther bank = better item, higher taxes.





Also, maybe have donations... like you could donate money to temple in exchange for a bless spell that will last all day.

And maybe have donations give you items, and work like chests. Have a bunch of shitty items as rewards and a 1% or 5% chance at a good item (of course also depending on how much you donate).

[The Crazy Animal]

I like some of this... Here are a few of my ideas:
For one thing, on my current MMUD board, I just limit the max balance you can have in each bank to say, 90 runic so people can't hoard (sp?) too much cash.

The problem with that is the cash just ends up on the ground then if you can?t spend it or bank it. So unless you continually do coin sweeps the issue of too much cash in the game continues. I don?t really like coin sweeps though because it degrades the fun of actually finding a trove of cash. If there were more banks in the game though account limits wouldn?t be a bad thing.

Now maybe don't have the banks be linked like Khaz and Silvermere are now. And have each bank have different 'taxes' or things that they are used for, and the game know how much you paid, and have a benefit.

I?d agree the banks shouldn?t be linked together as they are now. I would go as far as saying there should be a banking system in place though that allows you to move money around though. Lets say there could be multiple types of banks and each type of bank has its own set of banking fees or and game rules attributed to them. As a standard for all of them though when a bank is robbed it temporary shuts down for say 30 minutes this keeps players from being able to run rob deposit scripts while sitting in anyone bank. It also forces players to use multiple banks and spread their cash around or risk having to wait for it.

Family banks:
These banks are owned by rich influential families they are cheap to use but have higher risks involved. They are limited in account size, have small accounting fees, money is not transferable to other banks, optional account insurance (0% to 100%) at an additional fee. They are easiest of the banks to rob as well. When robbed all accounts at the bank are hit for a random percentage amount (actual method could be worked out later.) You might find a few of these types of banks in any one area all with variable fees and account limits.

(On a side note there could be premise here for thievery quests based on family back rivalries.)

Municipal bank:
This would be kind of like the bank of Silvermere. It?s owned and maintained by the town or city that it exists in. Banking fees are slightly higher but it is better secured as well as having additional services and higher account limits. Cash in accounts is transferable to other banks at a fee and has a wait period attached to it. You may also deposit items if you rent a safety deposit box.  Items in a safety deposit box may be insured for an additional fee, if stolen you get the insured value back not the actual item though. The rent on a safety deposit box is pulled directly from your account, if your account does not have the cash need to pay for the box the items are seized and put into an auction system (kind of like a sheriffs sale).  The amount cash fees these banks take in directly affect how secure they are. And to an extent also could affect the types of guards in a town in general. An account insurance of 10% to 25% is included in the basic fee and extra additional account insurance may be worked out at an additional fee. When robbed for cash all accounts at the bank are hit for a random percentage amount (actual method could be worked out later.). When safety deposit boxes are robbed it works a little more like a chest as to which ones are opened from the available boxes in the bank some would be from players and others would be generated with the items values based off of the tracked value of fees taken in. These banks start out at a medium difficulty to rob.

Royal bank:
This type of bank would be similar to the one in Khaz it?s backed and owned by a royal family.  Here you find the best security for your money and possessions but at an equally high cost. Starting account insurance is 25% to 50% with more available at a cost. Accounts do not have limits on them. Cash transfers are faster? Your account includes a safety deposit box insurance for that is extra though.

Gang bank:
We have gang houses and shops so why not gang banks you decide the fees and supply the protection by purchasing upgrades. Gang members can bank for free. Fees would be kept in a house account and could help pay for the actual gang house and would be accessible to the gang leader. When this type of bank is robbed the name of the person who robbed it is recorded on a bulletin inside the gang house.

This would give you some variance in the banking system.

One thing I?d love to have NPCs that rob the banks too and end up with special drop lists based on the contents they get from safety deposit boxes. You?d basically see a bulletin with the NPCs name and area of the bank and a basic direct they went in and you can go track them down. Items dropped from the NPC could be turned in for a reward or kept. If the items are turned in for a reward they go back into the boxes they were taken from or poofed depending if they belonged to a player or not.
I?m not sure what to think about just giving rewards out for using the bank though I do see what you?re getting at. I could see maybe things like transfer fees could be discounted if you keep a minimum balance. Really though the fees are there as a logical means of cost for a service.

Also, maybe have donations... like you could donate money to temple in exchange for a bless spell that will last all day. And maybe have donations give you items, and work like chests. Have a bunch of shitty items as rewards and a 1% or 5% chance at a good item (of course also depending on how much you donate).

I kind of like the donation idea. I could see it working out where there could be some donation system in place within the banks that could give out rewards. These could be events like the eastern garrison is in desperate need of supplies. Donate some cash to help out. Then perhaps the player that gives the most cash gets a special reward and everyone else gets some other default reward. The events could even be locality based too so it?s always things near the bank.

[Jigga]

About the donations... you could even have NPC's in random places in the realm just wandering, sort of like the nomads in the deset, and have them ask for money, and there always be the chance that if you give them something, they might randomly give you an awesome reward...

like a 'weary traveller' in the lagoon somewhere... or even a wounded or dying somebody... and they would ask if you could help them, and then end up giving you some item they had that they will 'no longer be needing' for your generosity.



On another note, with the bank taxes and stuff, one thing would be, once players get big enough they'll just carry all thier money on them.

Think, a level 50+ tank scripting the white forest would just script with 500 runic on him because there's no way he's going to lose it.

[manihooni]

just a note on the donation idea
brings me to mind of D&D
where like paladins couldn't keep all the booty because they are "poor" knights  (if lawfully aligned that is)
Sooo, they gave most of what they received to their temple / God and only got to keep enuff for their immediate expenses. horse /food/lodging etc.

I also like the bank robbing idea.. i would assume that rhudar would have easiest robbing factor  after all it is an evil town with unsavory characters  like an old west frontier town w/o a sheriff or his posse. and since them mystics  are well mystics, (albeit evil ) the temple would be ummm religious by nature and rely on umm donations - yeah donations (probably at sword/ fist point?)- egrin

[Darmius]

We just need more money sinks.  Most MMOs have many in place.

Common money sinks, you've seen them in many other games

• Food - Increase HP/Mana gain, not required but a decent way to suck up some cash
• Potions - The current potions in game are... useless?  Cure Poison potion with multiple charges, please!
• Reagents - Caster spells, preferably expensive and for the less commonly used spells.  Teleports, Summons, Resurrects
• Enchants - Enchanting Mundane weapons, of course this would require a use for mundane weapons, maybe customizable weapon enchants
• Repair fees - Broken gear while scripting, man that would be fun... no
• Gambling - I would love to see a group gambling, not just slots. Texas hold'em tournament in game... better yet someone steals the prize money!
• Bounties - Allow players to place bounties on people. Or bounties on limited items could cost a lot more. Don't like to PvP?  have someone else do the dirty work.  This could even be NPC's
• NPCs that can pickpocket - In Rhudar you may get robbed and never know it
• Money is metal, metal can melt?  Don't script Dragons with cash in your pockets
• Limit the global amount of money in the game - This could require a lot of work, but then we can have a recession in game!

Okay i'm running out of ideas.  But Food and Potions would be easy to implement, the rest would require some work.

[geeogree]

I like a lot of the ideas here but I think I know what part of the problem with how much money people have is - items sell for too much money. I can make several runic selling items from chests that aren't even limited. Now items should be worth a fair bit but I don't think it should sell for too much if you can buy it in a shop. Yeah, limited items should sell for a lot because getting another one is usually a difficult task and limited items are generally pretty good. I just think cutting back on how much items sell for would reduce the amount of money in the realm at any time. That and some of the other ideas here like the ones listed would make it a lot harder to accumulate lots of money.


Oh, I had another thought, if you are in an area where you are "evil" (because the good/evil system is not quite as simple as it is right now) you should be able to bribe guards not to kill/attack you maybe (unless you are fiend).... just another way to have to blow some money in order to save time not going to jail or dying and finding your deathpile.

[manihooni]

hrrmm i sure like the bribe idea 

[kalus]

Portals, Teleporters, Wagons, Flying Griffons to other towns... or any location. For a price.

[DeathCow]

Flying Griffons to other towns... or any location. For a price.

Spooky man...spooky.

[Gardner Denver]

Spooky man...spooky.

Flying Griffons, where have we seen that before...

[The Crazy Animal]

Flying Griffons, where have we seen that before...

hehe

[Torque]

I had bank tax as an idea and searched that to find this thread. What about a 2% tax rate on bank balance every day? Quick mental math tells me 1,000,000 copper in the bank, you'd be paying like 30 gold a day, with diminishing costs (if you add nothing to it)