Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)

[Hurricane Omega]

First off, way to necro a bunch of really dead stuff.  A small tax on the bank balances doesn't change the fact that by level 50 the only cash you really need is up to 600 runic for the easy trainer.  I train every 2 levels and reduce that to 300 runic.  I can pull that out of the dying fields in 4 trips with my two characters and if you collect plat at the storm fortress, one trip should be enough.  To keep the cash under control, you need something to spend it on at high levels, not an arbitrary tax on bank accounts.

[Torque]

First off, way to necro a bunch of really dead stuff.

And?

not an arbitrary tax on bank accounts.

Abitrary-
1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. "his mealtimes were entirely arbitrary"
 
You're using the straw man argument to pretend like your point is better than mine. There is no comparison; your idea is completely different than mine, especially when you can engage both of them concurrently and independently. So.... I guess your comparison is arbitrary!

the only cash you really need is up to 600 runic for the easy trainer.

Are we talking about GreaterMUD? I thought GreaterMUD didn't have any costs to train. Hurri I appreciate your reply, but you've succombed to word bashing (by the way, you automatically win at internet hating, I give up). Because of this, I don't really see any point to anything you've said other than "Hurrilollicane must not like me and will do everything he can to prove me or my points obsolete, regardless of reality".  How about seperating your boring ego and idea from my idea, then talking to me about why my idea wouldn't work. Why wouldn't it work?

[Hurricane Omega]

The training itself does not cost anything.  You do still have to pay the 36 tolls and buy the 20 runic key to get to the trainer.  If you train every level, that costs around 56 to 58 runic per trip.  I just don't think that taxing bank accounts will help with the economy at all.  Once I get past level 75, I don't need gold for anything other than the 5 gold toll to get out of Silvermere through the main gate.  If you want to clean up the cash that is littering the ground everywhere, you will need something to spend it on, not just tax it out of the game and hurt players at low levels.

[Torque]

Awesome! Thanks for actually debating and bringing up good points. I don't think the trainer and its tolls has anything to do with this proposed bank tax, but it does have more to do with your suggestion of creating a higher end market [which to spend money on]. I like your suggestion as well, have more things on the higher end to spend on, it's great, and definitely better than what I'm talking about.
This bank tax is a way to eliminate money from the market, which is a known way to handle affluency. Affluency is bad for the same reason that the economy "needs to be fixed". It shouldn't be the only way, but it will at least help in the battle. If someone has a white house, they can stock gold for a year, leave, and still have the white house after a year. This is a pretty crappy system, and I think a bank tax will help expedite a solution, while adding to the reduction of in-game currency. Because it will be a small percentage, the daily user won't really feel it: If you have 100 runic, 1 runic for the first day isn't going to hurt you. If you didn't put any money in the bank, you'd have 99 runic - 99 plat for the next day, and so on. I don't feel like doing the math, but it would take a month before you were needing more money (since you weren't creating and putting money into the bank in the first place after that intial deposit).
If your ultimate reason for not wanting a bank tax is simply that you would hate it while you were playing, I don't think that is enough reason to put it aside. Money shouldn't be easy, and a bank tax is a way to make it harder. Also, you don't have to use the bank

[mad]

I think there should be fees AND interest, like a normal bank.

A daily fee, and monthly interest, balance it out so you must keep depositing or eventually, it dwindles to nothing. Solves the economy issue. Not much you can do once people begin hauling 80 runics down the mountain.

[Thanos82]

Personally I think the idea of cash deleting at cleanup has some merit. But no single solution is going to fix everything.
I understand delete at cleanup wipes out the possibility of just wandering into a huge treasure trove, so add safe rooms to the map where items are protected.

Later maybe code in monsters pickup cash or hide it. No reason a secret room/lair can't be added to some of the more intelligent monster areas where would have a vault . After all, if the gnolls (my perennial favorite to pick on for obscene cash) have so much gold why don't they have a vault? Why wouldn't they build a vault which is guarded by some of the toughest gnolls they can find. Make them three times as tough as existing gnolls, non-chase, instant HP regen if the room is empty minus the gnolls (no sneak in BS then run out since they won't chase), and almost no xp, and a 3 minute regen and you've got something not worth scripting, but which. Once they are dead a locked door behind them becomes pickable/bashable, and behind it is the treasure.

Same concept for other locations. Or in even simply monsters pick up money. It never did make sense why they would all be fighting in rooms simply filled with cash (Dark-elf castle). Scripters could still stash cash, they just can't leave it where it lay and otherwise intelligent monsters are leaving it alone.

How hard would it be to code in a limit to amount of coins that can be hidden in a room? Does it make sense that 300,000 coins could be hidden in a room? Because of game mechanics and such could it be set to a 50K limit, and the rest is visible?

Forgot to mention. A delete at cleanup option though is a huge change to the baseline economy and expectations of how much money a person could have. It would actually mean many prices should be lowered if the objects are going to even be obtainable.

[The Crazy Animal]

I've been toying with the idea of having areas that have reward drop limits when they hit zero they would stop dropping things. These areas however would pick up extra cash and recycle them into their drops and have a set a cash regen limit that slowly maxes out. The cash regen rate could be set via other game figures. Something very similar to what you see in automatic city generator programs for DND. However without methods of cash redistribution (gasp socialism via combat or trade) there isn't a good way to go about setting up the system to function since mobs and mob regen aren't linked to any intrinsic gave value.

Something that would be needed would be a system to grow food. (food being cash, crops and other materials...)
How much food a mob requires to regen.
A way to trade such food merchandise fairly will only a hint of player abuse. Think trading with an ally or an opposition group. This can be played into the good vs evil dynamic of the game.
This type of thing could open up trade missions that play in with tolls, taxes, and sundry items.

This can be worked into the game also though such as genning orcs with clubs vs orcs with broadswords or even starving orcs that beg you for money ;p . I have to agree with Thanos82 we have a data driven game so there is no reason not to express that data where and when we can to make a more dynamic realm.

[The Crazy Animal]

More on dynamic tolls:
Right now game tolls are flat tolls for entering an area. This is could be changed so that the game dynamically modifies the tax per player level I.e at level 10 your forest to silvermere toll is the standard but at level 50 it could be higher. For fairness in parties perhaps tax on the avg level of the party tossing out the highest and lowest of the values. This could help cut down on dragging in massive cash values from higher level areas to lower level areas.

Gmud 2 or higher could even try to segregate this between walled and un-walled cities.

[Hurricane Omega]

I haven't paid a silvermere toll yet.  I just take the underground way in and out.

[The Crazy Animal]

I haven't paid a silvermere toll yet.  I just take the underground way in and out.

lol.. I think most of us are aware there is a cut around for it. I picked it just because it's a walled city and just about everyone knows there is a toll there. I could have called it goobermere for all that it matters name wise.

[Redrum]

the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.

[Greater]

the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.

Giant pile of retardation

[Redrum]

Giant pile of retardation

thats your whole contribution to the discussion?

[Karl]

thats your whole contribution to the discussion?

Big Bert doesn't contribute. He just trolls poorly.

[Greater]

Big Bert doesn't contribute. He just trolls poorly.

Pot, meet kettle.

the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.

What I decipher out of this amalgamation of letters and oddly placed punctuation is that you want this game's economy to be more like Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft. You want a new item to be used as currency, much like the Stone of Jordan (Not Jericho) ended up in Diablo 2. You want every monster that drops cash have the same low generic cash drop max like World of Warcraft. The only other suggestion I saw is that you want prices adjusted so that it takes until level 50 to buy a Blue Tower item.

None of these are good ideas. I'd post alternatives, but I've been around here long enough to see that these threads are just fantasies at the end of the day.