PVP solutions

[DeathCow]

After discussing some ideas on how to solve PVP issues in GreaterMUD I've come up with an idea that I'd like to share so that it can be collaborated on.

In essence there would be two realms, one realm would allow pvp and the other would not.  Player would be able to travel between the two realms at will from certain (a) predetermined location(s) throughout the game.  Each realm would be exactly the same as the other, each with their own rooms, shops, bosses.  As such the number of lims in the game would be doubled.  NPCs that drop items would have then have the game engine randomly decide which NPC gets the automatic first drop.  Some bosses such as the guardian golem may have their items split (or randomly one golem *may* have all of the items).  In the pvp realm players receive 10% more exp per kill. In the non-pvp realm players do not drop their items upon death, instead they drop a "life crystal" which lowers their stats(str..int..health) by 25% until it is recovered.  Multiple life crystal come from one player, but their stats never drop more than 25% and their stats are not recovered until all crystals are recovered.  A life crystal remains in the realm for 6 hours.

On the pvp-side players still drop life crystals but they do not lose stats. (life crystals can later be used as targets for res spells).

Ganghouses on the NON-PVP side cannot be broken into.  Ganghouses on the PVP can be broken into.  On the non-pvp limited items may not be hoarded.  Limited items on a player that cannot be equiped by that player will poof after 48 hours.  Limited items on the ground(outside of a ganghouse) will poof after 24 hours.  Limited items inside a ganghouse will remain until a user has tagged them.  Any user may goto the front door of any gang house and LIST the limited items inside the house.  If a user wants a limited item inside they house they may then tag the item.  The entire gang is informed through one gang wide broadcast and a new ability will be added to allow gang members to see what items are tagged.  If the item is not equiped within 48 hours of tagging it is then SOLD to the user who tagged it, and the funds are removed from their account and added to the gang leader's account. Limited items are sold for 2x their in game value(as defined in the item database). This is not a perfect system.  This system could be abused.  HOWEVER, I believe it would be very easy to track abuse of this system.  That does however require an active MUDop and maybe some sort of logging of the Tagging system.

Either side of the realm should be able to be turned off at the sysop menu.

This obviously needs some work but I'm gonna stop typing now and look for some input.

[Deacon]

Lets do it

[Exodus]

1. Twice as many limited items means there would be two Nexus Spears. Part of what I like most about MajorMUD is that some items are limited to one and only one, so if you have it you're a bad ass and it means other people want it. This encourages PVP and I think if there were ten Emerald-Hilted Rapiers (off the top of my head) that people would care less about that particular item.

2. 10% more exp per kill in the PVP realm is a sure way to attract more people to the PVP realm, but then who would go back to the other one? I can see the non-PVP realm having 5 people and the PVP realm having a few dozen.

3. The life-crystal sounds like a good idea, but takes away the thrill of having to scrounge for lesser items to go back to get your stuff and being smarter about it. If I never lose my stuff, why do I care about risking death? What if someone else nabs my life-crystal? That would be immeasurably worse than temporarily losing some gear that I could potentially PVP someone to get back. I think losing 25% of your stats would make it even more difficult to retrieve your stuff.

4. The item hoarding issue could be resolved by selling deeds to player-run shops. A player could find a valuable item and then place it in his own store to be sold. This would encourage a more player-driven economy where items would be less likely to be lost and collecting them would be even more rewarding. And if you were killed and saw some of your gear in a shop, you'd have a pretty good idea of who ganked you. "Poofing" could work for limited items that are lost in the game and maybe after a week or two they'd return to their original location (if not in an inventory, equipped, or stored in a vault). I think the hoarding could be cut down drastically with minimal development time by implementing player-run shops. Stores could require periodic tending by the owner or the shop would close and all items in it would poof. The deed to the store would return to the deed shop for re-sale.

5. Tagging items in vaults kind of defeats the purpose of having a vault. I don't want people to know what's in my vault: that's for you to come in and find out for yourself.


Over-all, I think that separating the realm is a bad idea. Compensating for the inconvenience of PVP for those who wish to not participate could be accomplished in some practical way while still keeping the realm uniform. Perhaps if one wishes to never participate in PVP, he could choose Lawful for his alignment and if killed by another player, the corpse would simply vanish with his gear. I know it sounds implausible, but it's no more  implausible than two-realms with differing game-rules. And to avoid the death-pile ganking for Lawfuls, perhaps an attribute can be applied to inventory items for a price that would toggle them loyal when held by the owner. If he gives it away or drops it, the loyal property would toggle off. This way a Lawful player could keep his more important items on death (but at a steep cost). Maybe on a per-death basis, each time he dies he would have to pay for his items to be enchanted once again.

I'm very much against separating the realms because of the disconnect it would create. I play MajorMUD because of the limited player-base. When I run into people I recognize them and feel a real sense of competition for resources and valuables. When I have competition with people it makes me want to be at the keys more often. When there is competition and controversy, people become more engaged in their game.


I should have more to add soon.

[DeathCow]

1. Twice as many limited items means there would be two Nexus Spears. Part of what I like most about MajorMUD is that some items are limited to one and only one, so if you have it you're a bad ass and it means other people want it. This encourages PVP and I think if there were ten Emerald-Hilted Rapiers (off the top of my head) that people would care less about that particular item.

Personally I am A huge fan of limited items. I like having them and I like even more than other's don't.  There is no reason that certain items couldn?t be flagged to not double.  Further more items like the EHR could have their max drops edited down to accommodate changes we make in the game engine.

2. 10% more exp per kill in the PVP realm is a sure way to attract more people to the PVP realm, but then who would go back to the other one? I can see the non-PVP realm having 5 people and the PVP realm having a few dozen.

We are noticing that GreaterMUD is attracting large numbers of players even in its beta stage.  Many mudders no longer enjoy pvp, and the safety of a non pvp realm should be appealing to them.  If you want to risk scripting in the PVP realm you get an advantage. If you want to stay safely away from pvp then you get a different advantage.  I have to say this point seems to be in direct conflict with some of your arguments.

3. The life-crystal sounds like a good idea, but takes away the thrill of having to scrounge for lesser items to go back to get your stuff and being smarter about it. If I never lose my stuff, why do I care about risking death? What if someone else nabs my life-crystal? That would be immeasurably worse than temporarily losing some gear that I could potentially PVP someone to get back. I think losing 25% of your stats would make it even more difficult to retrieve your stuff.

I think it would be difficult as well, however I think you are missing the point.  You lose stats rather than losing your gear.  No stuff to go get.  There is a 6 hour maximum that a ?life crystal? would be around so you can always wait it off.  This is where I?m seeing some circular movement in your arguments,  If the majority of people are going to be in the pvp realm then most people will still lose their stuff.  I hadn?t actually planned for other players to be able to collect (for that matter they might not even be able to see) your crystal.  And yes it does remove some of the thrill but in all honesty if you?ve ever been on a PVP realm DP raiding is one of the biggest problems they have.

4. The item hoarding issue could be resolved by selling deeds to player-run shops. A player could find a valuable item and then place it in his own store to be sold. This would encourage a more player-driven economy where items would be less likely to be lost and collecting them would be even more rewarding. And if you were killed and saw some of your gear in a shop, you'd have a pretty good idea of who ganked you. "Poofing" could work for limited items that are lost in the game and maybe after a week or two they'd return to their original location (if not in an inventory, equipped, or stored in a vault). I think the hoarding could be cut down drastically with minimal development time by implementing player-run shops. Stores could require periodic tending by the owner or the shop would close and all items in it would poof. The deed to the store would return to the deed shop for re-sale.

I understand that this method could work, but I?ll give you a situation.  Lets say this realm is any realm I?ve played on since reset.  I?m slotted in the number 1 rank from 15 minutes into the game till 3 months.  I killed all the bosses and have all the items and I am rich.  Why would I sell stuff? The only way I can see player shops adding to the realm is if we introduce player crafted items (which we have many threads about).

5. Tagging items in vaults kind of defeats the purpose of having a vault. I don't want people to know what's in my vault: that's for you to come in and find out for yourself.

Tagging is only for non-pvp realm Gang houses.  You can of course buy a vault in either realm.

Over-all, I think that separating the realm is a bad idea. Compensating for the inconvenience of PVP for those who wish to not participate could be accomplished in some practical way while still keeping the realm uniform. Perhaps if one wishes to never participate in PVP, he could choose Lawful for his alignment and if killed by another player, the corpse would simply vanish with his gear. I know it sounds implausible, but it's no more  implausible than two-realms with differing game-rules. And to avoid the death-pile ganking for Lawfuls, perhaps an attribute can be applied to inventory items for a price that would toggle them loyal when held by the owner. If he gives it away or drops it, the loyal property would toggle off. This way a Lawful player could keep his more important items on death (but at a steep cost). Maybe on a per-death basis, each time he dies he would have to pay for his items to be enchanted once again.

I'm very much against separating the realms because of the disconnect it would create. I play MajorMUD because of the limited player-base. When I run into people I recognize them and feel a real sense of competition for resources and valuables. When I have competition with people it makes me want to be at the keys more often. When there is competition and controversy, people become more engaged in their game.


I should have more to add soon.

The idea of making mirror realms is so that we don?t punish non-pvp players because of their preferred game.  We could just run two separate realms, one with, one without, but that separates the players  The idea is to keep the players together so that they can interact.  I can?t see that its more of a disconnect with two realms that can be crossed over than simply having 2 different realms running apart from one another.

[Trios]

...Just make lawful actually matter somehow, no need to go to all the trouble of having separate realms...

[DeathCow]

I almost always play Lawful.  Because Lawful does matter.  Realm politics is what makes an elite player.  Any ass munch can pvp all day long.  You will lose eventually.  A player that has every item in the game that no one wants to kill is the games winner.

[Exodus]

A potential issue I can see is that someone will come to the PVP realm, kill someone else and take their stuff, then go back to the non-pvp realm and never leave it again.

How can I retaliate? That would be abuse of the system. I can't wait for him to die in the non-pvp realm because his stuff won't ever drop.



Alternatively, if you keep it one realm with PVP and you made a quest or a shop that will apply the loyal attribute to desired items with one-charge-per-death I think you could create a fantastic money sink, keep everyone in the same realm, and deter PVP against Lawfuls. I know giving this loyal choice only to lawfuls doesn't sound very fair, but there might be some other way to work it or something similar into the game.

[Jigga]

Eh I like how things are now... different BBS's with different PVP settings and players choose the type of game that is good for thier liking.

[The Crazy Animal]

I kind of always liked the idea of zones where you have pvp enabled zones that give larger rewards and non-pvp zones that have smaller rewards. They both can exist in the same realm with the same player base. The where and when you risk your neck is all up to the individual then.  It even kind of fits in to the whole city alignment thing.

[DeathCow]

Its an idea that I really like.  Even if its a feature thats only enabled on the offical greatermud server I'm all for it.

[kalus]

Instead of a non pvp zone and a pvp zone, why not have good, evil, neutral (contested) zones?

I wouldn't want to see pvp abolised, but an evil attacking a good in a good zone should incur some sort of penalty and vice versa

[DeathCow]

You'd have to elaborate a bit.

[soul]

Instead of a non pvp zone and a pvp zone, why not have good, evil, neutral (contested) zones?

I wouldn't want to see pvp abolised, but an evil attacking a good in a good zone should incur some sort of penalty and vice versa

I totally like this idea. Every room (or zone) is flagged as Evil, Neutral or Good.

Benefits and penalties would be given depending on your zone, your alignment, and the attackers alignment. Just suggestions, but it could work something like this.

Zone   Your Alignment   Attackers Alignment   Modifiers
Protected         No PVP Allowed
Good   Good   Evil   BS % 3/4, BS Damage 3/4. elite guardsman summoned to your aid (hold, mahe, attack)
Good   Good   Neutral   BS % 3/4, elite guardsman summoned
Good   Good   Good   elite guardsman summoned
Neutral   Good   Evil   No Penalty
Neutral   Neutral   Good/Evil   BS % 3/4, BS Damage 3/4. attacker slow (movement and attack)
Evil   Evil   Good   BS % 3/4, BS Damage 3/4, Burning Death on attacker (loss of hit points, based on level)

Additionally (or alternatively) just being in the wrong zone could curse a person. For example, an Evil in a Good zone would have 50% sneak break, 3/4 BS % and 3/4 BS Damage, and slow. A neutral in a good zone would have 75% sneak break, 3/4 BS %. Reverse for other roles.

[Xibyn]

Well, back in the 90's when I was playing, PvP was without a doubt the most exhilirating part of the game, but as I've grown up I've found out I am becoming more of a 'carebear' type player in that I still love PvP, but don't really want to part with my items because I die/lag, etc.

I don't like the idea of losing 25% of my stats if I set my script at the start of my day, go to work, my char dies and hour later, I come home 10 hours later and find out I died and my life crystal has already poofed.

[kalus]

You'd have to elaborate a bit.

Just ideas some ideas on pvp below...

- Bountry hunters chase you in enemy zones, and they are tough. Comparable to your level.
- Players are notified by a messenger that the enemy has been spotted at a particular location.
- Different curses brought upon you in enemy zones
- Blesses for being in friendly zones
- Kill a rival player in their zone and friendly npcs run to their aid saving all their items? Or saving all their items except a random few
- You recieve honor points for killing rivals which can be cashed in for items and rank within your faction. Make pvp more about gaining honor or rank than about ganking items
- You lose honor and rank for killing your own faction
- Alignment quests become more interesting. Only evils should be able to party to complete an evil quest. The quest could take them deep into the good zone to kill a boss or gain an amount of honor. Good and evil should still be able to party together, just not for alignment quests.
-  Once you leave the newbie zone, you have to decide between good or evil effectively taking neutral players out of the game. OR leave neutral in the game, they get the benefit of being able to do both good and evil quests and kill both alignments, but don't get benefits such as messenger warnings in zones and friendlys returning most of your gear upon death.