Mod-10 Beyond the 6th Quest.

[DeathCow]

For people who do not know, Currently we are working on completing Mod-10.  Beyond finishing the alignment quest series, what else should be included in mod-10?

Mod-10 will require no coding changes and will run correctly in MMUD 1.11p(so long as all the Modules are installed).  As such, the only things that CAN be in mod-10 are things that the MMUD engine is currently able to do.

Is there a race, or a class niche that needs to be filled?

Is there a class that needs boosting?  How can this be accomplished?  New quests? Items?

Any well spoken suggestion will be added to the Poll.

[Valiant Lyta]

I have a couple of suggestions, but please bear in mind that I'm not all that knowledgable about MUD in general.  I'd like to see Shadowmere (the reverse of Silvermere) implemented and, if at all possible, Obsidian Fortress.  I know that OB FORT is only found on hexed boards, according to Winterhawk, but the Obisidan monsters would be a great challenge.  As regards Shadowmere, that could be the site of one of the level 6 quests.  Being as level 5 quests involve killing numerous monsters, depending on alignment, and culminating in Colossal Midnight Dragon and Dark Mage, level 6 quests would have to be more difficult and require a fair-sized group of people.  It could be similar to 4th quest where the quest is the same regardless of alignment.
As I said, these are just suggestions, based on areas I've played in before, although I'm not really familiar with Shadowmere.  Thank you for listening :)

[kalus]

Balance.

Add something to make the 1-hander classes worth a damn and useful. To kill a boss you shouldn't just need Paladins and Mystics.

Some ideas:

- Thieves, Gypsies, Missy, Ninjas give them a distract ability/spell. Causes 100% stun on a monster for 30 secs and once the mosnter is attacked the stun is broken. Can only be cast on one monster at a time. Makes these classes useful in boss runs when they can disable other mobs in the room.
- Bards battle needs improvement + more powerful short duration buff / debuff spells for use on bosses. Make a bard essential to any boss run.
- Priests, Clerics, Druids? - Increase their usage in parties by giving them the ability to dispel harmful bless spells. Bosses would need to cast really hardcore slow/conf/fear and certain classes would have the ability to remove any harmful effects.
- Witchy - Give them the ability to stop bosses casting alltogether for a round or two, either through an ability or weapon/item effect.
- Warriors, Clerics, Paladins - Some sort of tanking ability

Boss hps needs to be increased dramatically. I'm talking bosses with millions of hps that take 15 mins and require tactics to kill. You shouldn't be able to walk into a room with pure  damage dealers and win. You need tanks, healers, blesses, someone to disable or kill trash, someone to remove harmful spells and then someone to deal the damage.

[Gardner Denver]

Balance.

- Bards battle needs improvement + more powerful short duration buff / debuff spells for use on bosses. Make a bard essential to any boss run.

This one I think I gotta disagree with.  With the removal of the 10 spell limit in GMud bard buffs are plenty powerful already.  Especially if you party up with a mage.

[kalus]

This one I think I gotta disagree with.  With the removal of the 10 spell limit in GMud bard buffs are plenty powerful already.  Especially if you party up with a mage.

Compare the stats on song of battle, the pinnacle bless spell of a blessing class, with something like unfa,  and then get back to me.

[Gardner Denver]

If you look at all the buffs a bard can cast, and the effect they have on combat in GMud versus what a Priest can buff, the bard wins I believe.

[kalus]

If you look at all the buffs a bard can cast, and the effect they have on combat in GMud versus what a Priest can buff, the bard wins I believe.

Well that's debatable. I'd like to see someone test it. Bard blesses add a total of 3 max damage with hero + foce (+ whatever the +10 str from hero adds?). unfa alone adds 5.

But the point is, it shouldnt even be close.

I played a Bard to 75 through all of the battle and jeweled main gauche downgrades. There was a time when bards were powerful. batt got nerfed so much it is not even worth casting now, and its a sad state of affairs when your supposed best bless spell isnt worth the 20 mana to cast.

Song of Battle
5 dodge, 5 crits, 1 DR

Absolutely useless for a char that has hit the dodge and crit cap. Worthless.

[Gardner Denver]

There are high level bards active in the realm.  Figment and Albert.  Go watch them fight sometime.  Have Albert put his bard/mage/priest against most any monster in the game and they will slaughter it.

[kalus]

There are high level bards active in the realm.  Figment and Albert.  Go watch them fight sometime.  Have Albert put his bard/mage/priest against most any monster in the game and they will slaughter it.

Did you read any of what I just wrote then?

[Darmius]

Classes in general need to be balanced.

Before that happens AC/DR needs to be looked at, plate classes are too powerful compared to leather classes.
DR/AC either need to scale or have max lvl caps... a plate class in full plate at lvl 1 is invincible to most mosters thier level.

Armor and weapons need to be redone and standardized, there are a lot of cool items that have crap stats.

Spells for -1 and -2 classes need some love, being lvl 75 and having your last spell from lvl 20 makes absolutely no sense. IMO spells need to scale, a cleric can get godheal at lvl 60 etc..  this would also help gypsy, ranger, miss and warlock classes.  Also class specific spells, something that would benefit a missy or gypsy specifically remove some of their suckage.

Armor and weapon types need to be more evenly spread out.
3 plate classes
1 scale class
1 chain class
4 leather classes
1 ninja class
3 silk classes

Clerics need more 20-40 magical blunt weapon choices.

You have access to the Gmud code, I would hope that there are some sort of test cases to run class/race/gear/lvl balance tests.

[DeathCow]

Atm Mod-10 is being designed to work if MMUD as well as GMUD...ie 100% compatible with v1.0. So, no coding changes.

Some other things I feel strongly about

• No class will be nerfed
  
• No items will be nerfed
  
• Items that commonly go unused should be powered up
  
• Classes that are the most powerful will receive the least benefits from mod-10
  
  So that we are all on the same page, this is how I currently rank classes in the game.  This was writen by Sam the Banana, and I agree with his analysis.
  
  A la numerous other competitive games, I've developed a tier list of classes, trying to incorporate all aspects of a class, including kph potential solo and in a group, offense, defense, versatility, and usefuleness in a party.  I also considered class behavior across all levels, but, I do place more importance on performance at high levels since that is where chars end up eventually.
  
  Unlike some of my other posts, this one I'm not trying to establish as gospel.  I'd love for arguments to be thrown around as to why chars should be higher/lower on the list, and I can move them accordingly if I think someone presents a convincing enough case.
  
  So I broke it up into 5 tiers, which are areas of general separation, and within the tiers, chars have their own individual rankings as well.  Here's the list...I'll state my reasons below.
  
  
  *CLASS TIER LIST*
  
  Top:
  
  1.  Paladin
  2.  Priest
  
  High:
  
  3.  Warrior
  4.  Ranger
  5.  Ninja
  6.  Mystic
  
  Mid:
  
  7.  Cleric
  8.  Mage
  9.  Druid
  
  Low:
  
  10.  Bard
  11.  Witchunter
  12.  Missionary
  13.  Gypsy
  
  Bottom:
  
  14.  Warlock
  15.  Thief
  
  
  
  
  Alright so here's what I was thinking.
  
  The Top Tier:
  
  Paladin:
  
  Paladin got the #1 spot for a couple reasons.  They have the most damage potential of any class, as well as the most AC potential with prev (though obviously not at the same time).  They're pulling in the most kph solo for traditional scripting, with Jester's paladin pulling in 2.8 mil.  This is a class which offers stunning offense and can tank very well at all levels, for the most part, regardless of race.  At low levels paladins blow everything away it's retarded...they can script tasloi at level 30.
  
  Paladins virtually have no downsides and no weaknesses.  Hell even if you throw on 80% encumbrance to hit that AC award with the star helm, your damage isn't even *that* bad since you can just smash.
  
  Priest:
  
  Yes, Priest is at #2.  Priests are notorious for having way, way too much AC for silk, considering with the right items (only 2 of which are lim-1) they can get more AC than warriors.  On top of this, their healing is unmatched.  Good utility spells, a light spell if you're good/neutral or if you have the large silvery cross.  Traditional priest solo scripting isn't that hot at mid-levels, but they can still break 1.5 mil in several areas at high levels.  Non-traditional solo scripting is quite dominant.  Party scripting is...well, priests are arguably THE most valuable party character in the game since they can tank so well AND heal.
  
  They have two weaknesses, which tend to be minimized by typical priest behavior.  1st is low hps.   These aren't terribly tragic since a) most priests are races with good health and b) you can heal yourself to full in 2-3 spells.  It's incredibly difficult to kill a priest unless you round him, and with great ac and great MR, that's very, very hard to do.  The other is shitty damage.  Priest melee at high levels is enough for scripting - 450ish - but that isn't until about level 65.  The 5th quest spells do alright damage as far as spells go as well.  However, about 95% of priests run with a character which handles the offense in a party, so, this weakness isn't that much of a drawback on the class.
  
  I challenge people to advance reasons why priests *shouldn't* be ranked as high as they are, and, I'm pretty sure that, with this class, I can shoot them all down.
  
  The High Tier:
  
  Warrior:
  
  I threw warrior up next, though, I could certainly see some movement here.  Look, they don't have the damage of rangers or ninjas, but they can get great defense with much more ease than the other classes in their tier, and still have the option to get the PSC and go super-heavy and smash.  Additionally, it isn't like their damage pales next to ninja/ranger/paladin...they're probably 4th overall in offense.  Great hps, very, very good AC, warriors are stiff at all levels of the game.  Their low chart only makes them more dominant at low and mid levels. 
  
  Fittingly, they script very well solo (2 mil+), and can be used as either the lead damage guy or the lead blocker in any party.
  
  Their drawbacks are few...no healing, no utilities.  This will only give them problems when solo however, and their AC more than makes up for no healing in most situations.
  
  Ranger:
  
  2nd in damage.  Good hps.  Good utilities.  Why aren't they top tier?  Defense.  Mend/rhel only go so far, and their AC hovers around the notorious 60-80 AC mark, which is where characters perish against higher end monsters.  Consequently, for the most part, rangers don't script the best solo due to this.
  
  Their mediocre defense can be countered in a few ways, however.  One is to use a good quest weapon, but that's going to significantly limit your damage unless you're fortunate enough to get a hwarf (which, honestly, is not even a 'top tier' damage weapon).  The other way is to build a dodge-oriented ranger, which, imo, functions ultimately better than leather-based defense.   However, this may be problematic, since the backbone of any good dodge char are the SMRs, which are lim-1, and are usually highly prized on any board, no matter how small.
  
  Another way, which may end up with me moving them ahead of warriors, is their awesome elemental resistance.  Defense isn't that huge of a deal if you can script blue dragons or the volcano with over 100 resistance, though, I'm honestly a little unsure of what rangers with those setups are making solo.
  
  Ninja:
  
  3rd in damage.  Decent hps.  Good defense.  That's why they earned a spot in the high tier, but, i couldn't place them above rangers or warriors since warriors can perform so well with obnoxious ease, and rangers flat out take them for damage and have better hps.  Though, they do outdamage rangers, so that may translate to better scripting at least solo than a ranger, but ninjas don't have the option of going on an elemental resistnace route.  Plus they don't have utility spells, and have to rest, rest rest.
  
  But, they do boatloads of damage, pretty much at any point during the game.  Mid levels they're probably the closest to the smashers out of the rest of the classes.
  
  Mystic:
  
  I almost put these on the high tier, since they have good damage, and are the dodge kings.  This enables them to script quite well solo (1.7+) and gives them the dual role in a party since they can tank pretty well and additionally do good damage.   They're not quite on the level with the 2-handed classes, but they're certainly next.
  
  So why did I throw them on mid tier (granted, the top of mid tier) if I like em so much?  Because they need the SMRs to function at the top of their game, and the enigma gear is lim-1.  The latter observation may be an unfair sleight against the class, but the former I think is warranted.  The SMRs are certainly in the top 3 most sought-after items in any realm, so the more dependent a char is on obtaining this item....the less favorable it's going to be.
  
  EDIT:  Know what, I realize a mystic sans-SMR isn't at bad as I think they are.  Mystics still function fairly well with purely unlimited items, and certainly better than some of the classes I have above them with unlimited items.  I'm not going to put them above anybody just yet, but I'll move them up to the high tier instead of being the champs of mid.
  
  The Mid Tier:
  
  
  
  Clerics:
  
  Great AC, very good healing.  Good utilities, good hps.  Damage is weak since blunt is pretty limiting, especially when most clerics run at medium and will be using the gavel.  Smash makes them competitive at low levels, and they can script very, very well solo, AND they're a great char for the defensive end of a 2-man or 3-man party.  But, they taper off later as other characters surpass them in damage.  One of the big problems I have with this class (and I have one) is...they're living in the shadows of priests.  Priests can get nearly as much AC under much better conditions, blow their healing away, and put out almost as much average round.
  
  Mage:
  
  Good defense, best area damage, great party blesses.  Good utilities, esp. offensive ones.  Quite strong at low levels.  Can room script for decent exp solo, for good exp with another area caster.  Look, I know everybody loves spellcasters and will probably be pissed I only put mage on mid-tier, but here are the reasons I don't like them.
  
  Lowest mana regen of the mag-3 classes.  Nightmarish hps with no remedy.  Damage, overall, is mediocre.  It outshines 1-handers certainly on at least bosses, but still doesn't contribute enough to be 'good' for the most part. 
  
  They're really good for killing vampire elders, warmongers of blood, hydra heads, and manscorpion shamans, however.
  
  Oh damn I forgot why I *do* like mages - they have awesome party bless spells.  Mfren is great, sped is great for those slow ogres and kangs, smit is good, that party blur thing is good if you're with other silkies. 
  
  Druid:
  
  I had druid ranked higher than mage but decided to switch them for some reason I'm not really remembering right now.  Druids have okie-dokie defense I guess, since it's the best of the leather classes, and have decent enough area spells to script well enough in a team of casters, and I *think* can edge out mages for the solo roomer award (I'm thinkin blackwood garden).  They have outstanding utility spells, and are the most versatile class in the game imo.  Combat-2 opens some melee doors up for a differnet take on solo druid running.  They're good.
  
  But...how valuable in a party with melee chars?   They have star.  That's it.  I'd put them above mages (now I remembered the reason, heh), if they had pretty much any good party blesses.
  
  The Low Tier:
  
  Bard:
  
  Kings of the 1-handed damage (barring a mish with a bunch of lim-1s).  Woot.  Bad hps, somewhat salvagable defense (again, reliance on the SMR for a dodge-oriented bard), usually bad solo scripting....yea.  Why then are bards on top of the low tier?  Because they add *very* significantly to party performance.  Trav adds LEVELS of performance to melee chars, foce is great, valr is great at low level.  Quik and hero can juice up a char's performance to a horrifying degree.  And that isn't mentioning how well they can light up a dodge party.  Plus, they're easily the most useful class for 10-spelling, which comes in very handy when you're a) killing the dreadlord numerous times and b) killing the hanging tree every time it regens for the mod 9 chests it drops.
  
  Witchunter:
  
  Would have been top of this tier except for the overall usefulness of bard.  WHs have GREAT hps, good defense, and crappy damage.  This makes them...pretty damn useful to have around if you have somebody who can lay down some rounds against a boss.  They're simple, are pretty dominant at low levels of the game (1st to get smash), and are reletively easy to outfit since so much of their gear is unlimited and WH-only in reality.  Additionally, they're one of only two classes that can really stand up to lots and lots of magic damage coming at them. 
  
  Why low tier then?  Only priests are going to party with them for scripting, which unfortunately forces them to script solo.  Considering they top out at 1.68 mil at about level 50...that starts to drag.  Plus their damage is BAD.  Priests can melee more than a well-geared WH in the end.  Ugh.
  
  Missionary:
  
  Yeesh..we're getting down there.  Bad damage, bad hps, decent at best defense, overpriced chart, bad at low level, decent at high level...all mish really has going for them is a) good healing and b) good utilities.  They're ranked so low since clerics overshadow them in all aspects pretty much.  I mean, they aren't the most insulting class in the game (that's warlock). 
  
  I mean come on, they can't even steal.
  
  Gypsy:
  
  Bad damage, surprisingly good defense if built on the dodge route, otherwise bad, bad hps, bad resting, no healing, overpriced chart, but good party blesses.  Alarmingly un-useful utility spells, since their only good ones (excluding illu) are all too low of a level to be useful.  Bad at low levels, worse at mid-levels, bad solo scripters, and most parties would rather have a ninja, ranger, or bard fill a gypsy's role.  Not a popular class, for good reason.
  
  
  Last and Least:
  
  Warlock:
  
  Somehow, a class that is worse than gypsy.  Gypsy outdodges and has all their traps/picks/bs stuff, and warlocks have....chainmail, which is an armour type slightly better than leather, but is much heavier and cuts down dodge a lot.  Warlocks are so low imo because they are almost completely eclipsed by gypsy, and gypsies are dominated in most aspects by a number of other classes.
  
  EDIT:  Fuck these guys, I'm putting them in the bottom bracket.  Warlocks are an entierly obselete class.  If there was a class that needed to be cut from mud, they would be first.
  
  Thief:
  
  Bad damage, bad defense, bad hps, bad solo scripter, bad party scripter, no healing, no utilities, adds no value to a party, bad at mid levels, bad at high levels, but LOW EXP CHART!!!!!  Unfortunately, this doesn't really redeem them that much, heh.
  
  
  

[DeathCow]

Boss hps needs to be increased dramatically. I'm talking bosses with millions of hps that take 15 mins and require tactics to kill. You shouldn't be able to walk into a room with pure  damage dealers and win. You need tanks, healers, blesses, someone to disable or kill trash, someone to remove harmful spells and then someone to deal the damage.

I very much so like the idea of high HP bosses.  The bosses have lower damage levels, but require teamwork to kill.  The first time I killed the cob, it was truely epic, the battle lasted a long time, our healers mana was expended, it was truely a fun battle.

[schwagg]

*CLASS TIER LIST*

Top:

1.  Paladin
2.  Priest

High:

3.  Warrior
4.  Ranger
5.  Ninja
6.  Mystic

Mid:

7.  Cleric
8.  Mage
9.  Druid

Low:

10.  Bard
11.  Witchunter
12.  Missionary
13.  Gypsy

Bottom:

14.  Warlock
15.  Thief

I disagree with parts of this list.

Just as an example, I've highlighted where Witchunters and Warlocks are ranked in the list.

I also have to say, I completely disagree with your description of Warlocks.  Warlocks, when played right, can be very powerful. Warlocks, like Druids, are a class that doesn't require tons of limiteds or super rare items to be effective. Warlocks get the full range of armor from natural to chain, allowing for different gear pathing. (ie You can be a good Kang with full chain and big prev, or you can be a Nekojin wearing the lightest chain pieces with leather) Warlocks can set up for fighting and rooming in multiple high level areas, namely Blackwood Garden, and the list goes on. Warlocks are extremely versatile characters, topping out with as high of ac as Witchunters, and even more if you include prev. Let's not forget their array of personal melee buffs such as smit, frenzy, and speed. They also have resist spells, as well as the debuffing benefits of spells like stinking cloud, flash, corrosion and the like. Their room damage is effective enough to use in many boss situations, and certainly comes in handy for scripting when you decide you're sick of all that extra mana doing nothing for you. Warlocks also get Smash AND Meditate. They have powerful melee attacks for a 1 handed class, high ac, respectable party buffs, and an effective drain spell which keeps them from resting.

If you swapped Witchunters and Warlocks, it would be a definate start to truly balancing this list based on the solo, party, and all around potential of the class when it is played properly.

I also see that Druids are ranked curiously low in my opinion. To me, when played properly, Druids are definately in the top 5 classes in this game, and possibly even higher.  Ninja also seems a bit high on the list... it might be a good idea to switch Druids and Ninjas as well.

As far as reccomendations for Mod 10, I'd like to see the questing move away from alignments. The idea was fun for like 10 years, but honestly, it's getting a bit old now. Close up the alignment series with a final 6th quest, then move on to more class or class grouping quests, racial quests, and permanent status increasing quests.  New factions are a huge plus, and facilitate adding all types of new quests that don't have to have anything to do with your alignment.

A lot of the itemization needs a facelift as well. The pickings are pretty sparse post level 50, and in some extremes people are still wearing items from level 10 all the way to 75. A smoother progression of armor suits and accesories from level 1 to max would be nice.

New chests are a definate plus. Recycled textblocks from old chests are not.

Revamp the hard trainer in Nahr's castle.  Add some new spell drops or item drops to certain things.  It would also be nice to have doing the hard trainer rather than the easy trainer pay off for you in mod 10 somehow.

As you know I've got an ongoing mud project of my own so I don't want to give too many ideas away, but that should be a basic start.

[DeathCow]

I understand that warlocks *can* play just fine.  I've had similar disagreements with various people about various classes.  At one point I was in a discussion about missionaries with a player.  He contended that Missionaries were not as bad as I was saying they were, because they have greater healing, stealth...nice ac with prev, and dodge.. He killed this boss and this boss with his missionary. 

I'd like to note that at one time on a bbs I belive was called legion 2.5 I was playing a solo Missionary, and I maintained rank 1 on the bbs until late in the game.  Basically until solo flying paladins could make 2.5 mil/hr while I was maxed at 2 mil/hr.   I did what I normally do on a bbs like this, I made a hog warrior, bought plate, leveled him quickly..and rerolled once I had my EXP stacked with quests and all the gear I wanted.  With the lims I had I could keep the missionary competitive for a long time. 

Now that being said...the Missionary with those lims was fun to play, and worked out well, BUT had he been a Warrior, with those lims, he'd have been much more powerful.

Sorry I'm not being very clear with my point, so I'll get to warlocks.

Warlocks lack greatly in alot of things.  Gypsies actually out damage warlocks, because they have better class specific items, gypsies get excellent dodge, and make better use of their defensive spells than warlocks do.  Smit, Fren Speed, are nice spell, but with the exception of Smit, have a limited usefulness in either lifespan or drawbacks.

It is probably true that warlocks can DR room spell in the garden, I hadn't considered that.  But the usefulness of a class can hardly be determined by a single scripting spot.

[kalus]

*CLASS TIER LIST*

Top:

1.  Paladin
2.  Priest

High:

3.  Warrior
4.  Ranger
5.  Ninja
6.  Mystic

Mid:

7.  Cleric
8.  Mage
9.  Druid

Low:

10.  Bard
11.  Witchunter
12.  Missionary
13.  Gypsy

Bottom:

14.  Warlock
15.  Thief

List looks pretty accurate to me. I'd be tempted to rank Witchies higher.

What do the classes at the top (besides Priest) have in common? 2-handed weapons/high damage. An easy solution would be to give the classes down the bottom, spells/items to bring their damage up in line with the top.

A better solution, you shouldn't be able to have the highest ac and deal the highest damage at the same time.  Take Palys as an example.
- Have a set of plate for AC but it heavily reduces damage/speed. This is a tank Paly.
- A set of plate for damage but gives little AC. This is a damage Paly.
- A set of plate for mana regen and + healing/spell damage. This is a healing Paly. Yes Paly's should be good healers if they want to be.

Get rid of exp% tables. This is just a cop out to say we can't be bothered balancing the classes.

To be the highest damage dealer, a class must have major short comings in other areas.

Paly (dps gear) - Good damage, Poor defense, poor healing.
Paly (tank gear) - Poor damage, Good defense, poor healing.
Paly (spell gear) - Poor/Good spell damage, Poor/Good defense (w/spells), Good healing
Warrior (tank)- Poor/Good damage, Best defense
Warrior (dps) - Good damage, Poor/Good defense
Thief / Rogue (dps) - Best damage, Shockingly bad defense

Thief class needs to go, start fresh with a Rogue.

etc.......