Truly fixing backstab

[interchange]

If you want to fix backstab, here's an idea: it should not be the only attack you get in that round.  It should take the energy of 2.5 or so swings.  So if you have 4.5 raw swings, then you would get 2 additional swings after the backstab.  If you have 7.5 swings, then you can get a full 5 swings.  Just for balance issues, I'd suggest 2 other changes.  1. Mystics can sneak but cannot backstab, and 2. For thieves, it takes the energy of 2 swings instead of 2.5 so they can theoretically get more swings in.

[MudHunter]

So you want someone to get a high damage bs, plus mebbe 2 crits, getting a huge round? Yeah, that'll help the balance. /sarcasm

[DeathCow]

BS is a problem that needs to be addressed, this doesn't seem to be the answer..but I could be wrong :P

But where did ya come up with the 2.5? Just fiat? Maybe swings would be at 2x weapon speed or something.

[Thergin]

Looking at when Backstab was balanced in mod 4, I believe the main issue with why it has devalued, in pvp, and in scripting are.

Combat/Spell damage increased due to change of combat spell damage, quick and deadly, more powerful weapons.

If backstab damage was increased this would balance the scripting side of things, but unbalance the pvp side.

I feel that if you increase backstab damage, hitpoints should also be increased.

Currently I feel the hitpoints are far too low in general, pvp is not tactical anymore its just luck, if you round someone or not.

Pvp in mod 4 is a lot more fun, and more meaningful, why blind someone/confuse/slow if you are going to round them anyway?

[SluTFisHy]

thergin, those are all very very valid good points.

but also, rounding people are the only way you can kill bitches in PVP anymore.

everyone runs like a motherfucker or hangs.

[Thergin]

With high item drop chance, and % based loss of hps hanging is not always a great option. It has always been that way, at least before it cost a phone call.

[The Crazy Animal]

This is kind of  a quick toss it out there idea:

Getting 1 swing or 10 swings isn't so much of a big deal. Its a text game where 1 swing can represent one entire attack round. Lets say for a moment a bs attack has a number of swings in it and at the end you are only showed the total damage or if you completly botched the attack. Yes it would look the same but it would act different than it does right now.

(player) sends for a fury of surpise attacks at you for a total of (X) damage!

Now for each swing in that combo attack you use a bit of energy. That energy usage is similar to the normal combat mechanics as in you get more swings as you level and raise stats. Secondly if you could alter the energy usage for a weapons bs attack it would allow a more even and dynamic balance across the items department. I.e. actaully have a difference between bsing with a dagger rather then a mace. The end result being a more accurate attack with a more versitile damage range. That allows a degree of stratagy to be put back in as far as what weapon is the best for you to bs with at any given time. A secondary effect would also be the potential to all bsing with weapons that previously hit to hard do to the ability to set their bs energy usage independatly of their normal swings.

Also giving weapons a special strike type of DOT ability would another type of thing that can help close the gap like "on bs attack only" bleed-out 15% chance. Where the damage on the tic is based off of the total damage round.

Just a few passing thoughts.


TCA

[y2duhh]

how about just add a surprise attack quest at level 35 or something, think of backstab as a lower level 1-35 use and surprise attacks which would essential be a surprise round for 35+. just a thought, I like surprise rounds and want them to be there in GM.

[The Crazy Animal]

how about just add a surprise attack quest at level 35 or something, think of backstab as a lower level 1-35 use and surprise attacks which would essential be a surprise round for 35+. just a thought, I like surprise rounds and want them to be there in GM.

The way I look at it is that the surprise round would be a good all around replacement from lvl 1 to whatever. You'd always get at least 1 swing chance in them and it would be more suited to grow with a generally built character.

Having said that though it would then also free up the classic backstab as a special ability for some classes i.e theives and ninjas come to my mind first. The big thing I would change with it is that it wouldn't need to be done from a hidden or stealth pre-step. i.e. BS just engages combat and shows "no entering combat message".

<player> sidesteps you and stabs you in the back for <X> damage!

The thing is getting rid of the stealth pre-step actually makes the improved BS attack sneakier. Which is perfect for theives and ninjas character archetype. The next thing I would change is to increase the BS damage more based on the stealth of the character. The only limiting factor would be is that it would be more of a pvp move then a PVE one. However that could be remedied with ways of breaking both sides of combat. Which then also gives you the chance of manually landing a mid-combat BS.

[y2duhh]

The way I look at it is that the surprise round would be a good all around replacement from lvl 1 to whatever. You'd always get at least 1 swing chance in them and it would be more suited to grow with a generally built character.

Having said that though it would then also free up the classic backstab as a special ability for some classes i.e theives and ninjas come to my mind first. The big thing I would change with it is that it wouldn't need to be done from a hidden or stealth pre-step. i.e. BS just engages combat and shows "no entering combat message".

<player> sidesteps you and stabs you in the back for <X> damage!

The thing is getting rid of the stealth pre-step actually makes the improved BS attack sneakier. Which is perfect for theives and ninjas character archetype. The next thing I would change is to increase the BS damage more based on the stealth of the character. The only limiting factor would be is that it would be more of a pvp move then a PVE one. However that could be remedied with ways of breaking both sides of combat. Which then also gives you the chance of manually landing a mid-combat BS.

I agree but i see this as a more Thief, Missionary, Gypsy in the MajorMud World Ninjas and Rangers do damage and do more damage attacking than backstabbing.

[The Crazy Animal]

I left the others out of it for the singular reason of they have magic to back them up. And that gives alot more tweaking and balance room for those classes. And don't get me wrong two of my favorite classes in the game are gypsie and missionary.  I just see this as more of an assassination type attack.

And we really have to look at this as a altered mmud world since were free to create new formulas. Which is why I stated "The next thing I would change is to increase the BS damage more based on the stealth of the character." So the damage limitations of the classic BS attack don't really come into play.

I do agree though that Ninjas are always going to be iffy for making special attacks for since they do crit alot which is going to dramaticly increase their damage range.

If I were to make up something for Gypsie and Missionaries or even Rangers it would probably be the ability to surprise cast a spell. Something like set SC "spell name" then to engage the attack you just type SC "target". Each spell could even be balanced with a SC damage modifier value and a SC difficulty value. I leave the bard out of this one since it would be kind of hard to surprise someone while getting an ear full of a song.

[y2duhh]

in the current status of the game though, Thieves dont do alot of damage ok but have no xp chart but adding a little more to the chart and a special attack makes a little sense.

Ranger/Ninja - if I'm a Ranger or Ninja and I have a 2 hander and QND with I don't want to do a special surprise attack because honestly is the special surprise attack going to do more damage than 5 crits for 250-whatever? if thats the case then just call the surprise attack the surprise round a motherfucker attack :)

Bard/Gypsy/Missionary - surprise spell sounds nice at lower levels but think of a gypsy qnd with Laen, I now have a chance to do over 1k damage in a round if im well geared, id rather do a surprise round here too instead of a surprise spell.

[SluTFisHy]

I think these idea's are rather awful. Sorry I put it so bluntly.

[The Crazy Animal]

Its ok Slutfishy everyones entiled to an opinion. How would you fix it then?

[interchange]

This thread is shaking up to be awesome.  :box: