Rules need an update to reflect how the realm is run.

[Thergin]

Greetings my characters name is Thergard in the pvp realm, I am a co founder of TTG, my character I think was second in the realm after Bitcruncher.

PS Gypsies suck.

Well I think my time as a tester is at its end, I just want to give some closure and hope that things are cleared up for other people, so they dont misunderstand as I have. I would like the rules adjusted to represent how the realm is actually being run.

For me the purpose of player versus player in mud is a core part of the game. I started playing like most of you in 1995, and I was 15 years old. It was a very hostile part of the game. In fact Shrek killed my first character out of the game. I payed membership, and well kept playing learning my lesson.
People pvp for various reason, fun, items, killing lives. I played for all of the above reasons, but this being a beta realm, testing was also added to my list.

"PVP Realm:
    * No lives will be given out by ops
Exploitation of known bugs will be frowned on.  So will failure to report bugs that benefit you.  You won't get banned for it, but there are worse things than being banned in GreaterMUD."

Without the Pvp rules in there current form I doubt I would have even started a character, and sadly then a lot less testing would have been done. I accept lives are given due to bugs in the code.

I want to give one of my pvp examples in regards to Chef. I noticed him scripting the orc barracks, necko witchy spent an hour following and tracking which loop he was using, someone else was also looping the path a warrior, who could easily take lots of monsters killing any rod I made. I finally was able to hide in a room and with help from a friend they made a rod on the room I was hiding in, timing this perfectly that Chef would be the next into the room, and not the warrior. I was going to backstab the second round, sadly the room was too strong and before I could backstab chef hung on low life. I spent the next 10 hours at keys waiting for him to enter. It was worth it to me because he was on 1 life. Wow thats a lot of effort, yeah but that is ok "* No lives will be given out by ops". Well that attempt failed I missed my backstab, and he hung, and reinforcements came. If I had known he would be reinstated back into the game if asked I would not have gone to that effort, I would not be playing on the realm, and I am sure a lot of others wouldn't either.

"PVP (PVP Realm)
PVP, or Player vs. Player for the n00bs out there, is an integral part of most MUDs.  It promotes limited item turnover and more player interaction in the game.  There will be no magic forcefields that prevent you from ever being killed by another player, and we're not going to take any action against those players.  However, we will do our best to make it so the law/alignment system serves and protects you as it happens should happen in real life.  We will strive to keep things balanced, so if there's areas that are protective of "good aligned" people there will also be areas that are beneficial and protective towards "evil aligned" people as well."

I am disappointed to find out about the page bombing incident, this is behavior I have not seen since I was 15 years old. With no ability to stop the bombing its not something I see should be given a warning for. Deliberate and malicious act, it is not a mistake, and it is not something in the spirit of testing of the game. I would like the rules adjusted so no warnings for this action are given, the consequence should be a ban. Why bother going to the effort and logging/reporting this action, the innocent party has to spend there time for what, a warning?

"PS. Please keep in mind this is a test realm, meant to do some initial testing/debugging on the engine.  All characters may (and probably will) be reset when the new content is implemented.  So the next time your character gets rerolled, please don't be overly concerned with having them restored since they may not be around for much longer anyway."

I am prepared for my character to be rerolled at anytime. What I am not prepared for is to fight in a realm where a life doesnt matter, where I am going against naked mystics, mages, priests, who cant loose items, who have unlimited lives. This is where the story ends for me. I accept if those think its not in the spirit of a beta to kill someone out of the game. I disagree why would people pvp and find bugs, the most bugs are found when people are trying there hardest to kill each other, I cant try hard if I know it has even less meaning then it did before. You want to save one person from quitting. Well its going to cost more then one to save them.
Time for a reset.

[SluTFisHy]

Very well said.

"We will strive to keep things balanced"

Well things are not balanced. Allowing a naked character to abuse a spell that incompacitates anyone he casts it on to run around the realm, meanwhile giving him infinite lives and basically diplomatic immunity, is just too much.

Thergin is right, if these where rules declared for the PVP realm, and they are being changed at a whim, people are not going to want to put up with it. We all understand helping out due to certain situations and reversing the effect of bugs or glitches, but blatently going against the rules laid out, just because?

A lot of players may stop beta testing over this issue. Me included.

[Ariel]

I have not played in the PVP realm since mid September, and personally have no fights/conflicts with TTG.

I also know that PVP realm means anything goes. People play the game at their own peril. However, I am wondering why you, Thergin, has the malicious intent to roll people out of the beta game? Perhaps you treat this game more seriously than I had?

[Fuxsiloh]

How is the desire to reroll someone any more malicious than wanting to PVP them for the kill, items or any other reason? It seems the thrill in the PVP is the opportunity to deprive on the one hand and gain on the other. If Thergin wants to reroll someone in order to gain a spot in the Top 10/20/50 then that is the gain. Arguably the very nature of PVP is malicious and to try and isolate one motivating factor and call it 'malicious' is a blinkered way of examining PVP.

And why does wanting to play the game a particular way, in Thergin's case wanting to reroll someone, imply somehow that they take the game more seriously than other game-styles? Is it because they are more involved in the game (maybe at keys more)? Isn't that what a board would want - more active users?

And finally, why do you falsely assume that if a player IS rerolled that they will stop playing the beta game? Jacknife had both his dupes banned and he is still playing. I know of no one who has been unwillingly rerolled, but there are a number of players who have done so willingly and continued playing. I don't think that if a player IS rerolled unwillingly that they will necessarily stop playing.

[Thergin]

It is not that I want to reroll someone as my target, its that I want each life I risk to take , and all the items i risk to kill them to have some sort of meaning.

Why you think there is no buying of lives, and no added lives in the first place. Its a true pvp board, that is suppose to encourage a high pvp environment.

[Ariel]

It is not that I want to reroll someone as my target, its that I want each life I risk to take , and all the items i risk to kill them to have some sort of meaning.

Why you think there is no buying of lives, and no added lives in the first place. Its a true pvp board, that is suppose to encourage a high pvp environment.

So what do you suggest the updated rules should be?

[SluTFisHy]

The realm is a PVP realm, and as Ariel said "Anything Goes" or supposedly.

They laid out the rules as "no added lives" "no lives handed out by sysops" drew in a crowd of PVP players.

THATS WHY EVERYONE WHO IS PLAYING, *IS* PLAYING.

If the rules would have said,

"This is a PVP realm, you may kill whoever you want. But if you are teaming up on a player or chase him in a room, Sysop's will teleport him to safety. Also if you kill a player and has low lives, I will continue to add lives to that player so he will not reroll. Also, as a sysop I will follow these and any other rules only when I feel like it suits me or the situation"


Yeahhh...  im PRETTY sure ALOT* of people would not be playing right now if we knew all this ahead of time. Those are not the rules of a PVP realm.

If you declare you have a PVP realm, you are going to attract a PVP crowd. Which they did. now they are upset because we are PVP'ing.

PVP INCLUDES:
Attacking,
Backstabbing,
camping,
breaking into and looting ganghouse and vaults.
actually KILLING a player, (hence PVP)
shit-talk, usually alot.
hanging scripts
and the occasional reroll of a player.

[Silvix]

I also agree with all of this. This is a very well spoken thread and I could not have said it better myself. I'm down with a reset to get the game back in order.

[Vitoc]

Greetings my characters name is Thergard in the pvp realm, I am a co founder of TTG, my character I think was second in the realm after Bitcruncher.

PS Gypsies suck.

Well I think my time as a tester is at its end, I just want to give some closure and hope that things are cleared up for other people, so they dont misunderstand as I have. I would like the rules adjusted to represent how the realm is actually being run.

For me the purpose of player versus player in mud is a core part of the game. I started playing like most of you in 1995, and I was 15 years old. It was a very hostile part of the game. In fact Shrek killed my first character out of the game. I payed membership, and well kept playing learning my lesson.
People pvp for various reason, fun, items, killing lives. I played for all of the above reasons, but this being a beta realm, testing was also added to my list.

"PVP Realm:
     * No lives will be given out by ops
Exploitation of known bugs will be frowned on.  So will failure to report bugs that benefit you.  You won't get banned for it, but there are worse things than being banned in GreaterMUD."

Without the Pvp rules in there current form I doubt I would have even started a character, and sadly then a lot less testing would have been done. I accept lives are given due to bugs in the code.

I want to give one of my pvp examples in regards to Chef. I noticed him scripting the orc barracks, necko witchy spent an hour following and tracking which loop he was using, someone else was also looping the path a warrior, who could easily take lots of monsters killing any rod I made. I finally was able to hide in a room and with help from a friend they made a rod on the room I was hiding in, timing this perfectly that Chef would be the next into the room, and not the warrior. I was going to backstab the second round, sadly the room was too strong and before I could backstab chef hung on low life. I spent the next 10 hours at keys waiting for him to enter. It was worth it to me because he was on 1 life. Wow thats a lot of effort, yeah but that is ok "* No lives will be given out by ops". Well that attempt failed I missed my backstab, and he hung, and reinforcements came. If I had known he would be reinstated back into the game if asked I would not have gone to that effort, I would not be playing on the realm, and I am sure a lot of others wouldn't either.

I'm a little out of the loop as I haven't been in the realm much, so please forgive my ignorance here.  When you say "reinfoforcements came" what do you mean?  Someone else came to protect him?  When you say "reinstated back into the game", what do you mean?  Was he banned?  How was he "reinstated"?  Just trying to get my information straight before passing judgment.

"PVP (PVP Realm)
PVP, or Player vs. Player for the n00bs out there, is an integral part of most MUDs.  It promotes limited item turnover and more player interaction in the game.  There will be no magic forcefields that prevent you from ever being killed by another player, and we're not going to take any action against those players.  However, we will do our best to make it so the law/alignment system serves and protects you as it happens should happen in real life.  We will strive to keep things balanced, so if there's areas that are protective of "good aligned" people there will also be areas that are beneficial and protective towards "evil aligned" people as well."

I am disappointed to find out about the page bombing incident, this is behavior I have not seen since I was 15 years old. With no ability to stop the bombing its not something I see should be given a warning for. Deliberate and malicious act, it is not a mistake, and it is not something in the spirit of testing of the game. I would like the rules adjusted so no warnings for this action are given, the consequence should be a ban. Why bother going to the effort and logging/reporting this action, the innocent party has to spend there time for what, a warning?

We haven't yet gotten to reworking the law/alignment system, but it is something I really want to do.  As for page bombing, yeah, that's pretty shitty.  I need to implement something into TGS to prevent that.

"PS. Please keep in mind this is a test realm, meant to do some initial testing/debugging on the engine.  All characters may (and probably will) be reset when the new content is implemented.  So the next time your character gets rerolled, please don't be overly concerned with having them restored since they may not be around for much longer anyway."

I am prepared for my character to be rerolled at anytime. What I am not prepared for is to fight in a realm where a life doesnt matter, where I am going against naked mystics, mages, priests, who cant loose items, who have unlimited lives. This is where the story ends for me. I accept if those think its not in the spirit of a beta to kill someone out of the game. I disagree why would people pvp and find bugs, the most bugs are found when people are trying there hardest to kill each other, I cant try hard if I know it has even less meaning then it did before. You want to save one person from quitting. Well its going to cost more then one to save them.
Time for a reset.

How do they have unlimited lives?

I'm trying to understand what the actual problem is here.  Is it that lives are being handed out in the pvp realm?  Again, just trying to get the facts straight before passing judgment or making any decisions.

Thanks in advance.

[schwagg]

The reality, Vitoc, is that the PVP realm is cripplingly bugged in certain aspects.

A) There are retaliation bugs that won't let me attack at all, cast a spell, anything, even though 5 people are gangbanging me at once.

B) MR only half works. Since currently there is no chance to resist a directly casted between round spell,  this allows me to cast any spell I have on another player without failing.
B2) There is also a bug with spells that have the capability of providing 100% or more Confusion. These spells are somehow stacking themselves. Sleep is the main problem, since it's 100%.
      You put B and B2 together, what happens? Bugged 100% confusion that lasts far longer than it's supposed to. Sleep is NOT the worst of it, just what most have seen of it... In talking with Gard,
      we both came to the conclusion that we thought this bug might be due to the way confusion is being applied per swing/action that round, rather than per round.

There are other serious problems, but these have been the 2 main issues in pvp. When I or others are killed in either of these circumstances, I think I and they aren't asking something unreasonable. Gard has been giving out a lot of lives because there are so many buggy situations in pvp right now. Anyone dies from sleep, they want lives. I die because I can't fight, I want lives. The general purpose is obviously to keep people from quitting because they got gorilla rolled and camped by 5 people,  starting with a hold spell they couldn't resist(because MR only half works). This doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

If this realm was working near perfectly, I'd definately be down to develop some pretty loose rules with the community. A real pvp server has no rules and has unlimited range, but this ideal pvp server also has no exploitable bugs.

I'd go for a reset on either realm at any time, good idea.

[Silvix]

Here's my more detailed reply.

1. Using sleep to pvp is a stupid thing to do but also:
2. Using 6 people to attack one person is stupid.
3. As far as I knew, exploiting known bugs led to being banned.
4. Being banned means you can't play.. including making a new account and "not causing any problems"
5. I think Gardner has been assisting a bit too much lately. (see below)

I DO however feel that if you lose a life DUE to a bug, you should get that life back.

And my biggest concern: Why are we giving lives back to people and saving them from being rolled when the reason they died had nothing to do with exploiting a bug? Nod tried to fight 6 people and lost. No bugs were used. Lotus tried to attack multiple people and lost. Gard gave lives back to both of them to SAVE them from being rerolled.

Look, being rolled is just a part of pvp. If it happens, it happens. What's it matter? Some unspoken rule somewhere states that you can't re-make the same exact character?

I say reset the BBS, Gardner stops giving out lives to those who don't deserve it, we all start over. Done deal.

[Abyssyml]

I agree with the Nod thing being BS even tho he is in my gang and a friend. Now I do say we do a reset, let everyone start over on an even playing field so we can see how much skill TTG Truely has....

[schwagg]

I DO however feel that if you lose a life DUE to a bug, you should get that life back.

And my biggest concern: Why are we giving lives back to people and saving them from being rolled when the reason they died had nothing to do with exploiting a bug? Nod tried to fight 6 people and lost. No bugs were used. Lotus tried to attack multiple people and lost. Gard gave lives back to both of them to SAVE them from being rerolled.

If you really want to get down to it, casting hold person, entangle, pretty much anything is a bug at this point. It cannot be resisted. Therefore it a lopsided use of game mechanics. Thus lives are given out to balance the field.
At least in my circumstance, up to 5 people tried to camp me, spam me with between round spells like hold, entangle, etc. Unresistable actions. Cannot be prevented.

Just admit you want your mindless squad of Megamud-linked dupes to camp and reroll anyone that you choose. That'll at least save the time of sifting through your bullshit. Essentially you're crying wolf on the forums even as your pals take full parties to fight one person, all the while using unresistable abilities.

[Jacknife]

Jacknife had both his dupes banned and he is still playing.

alleged dupes

[SluTFisHy]

Yes I agree with almost everything said.  

But the issue is definately situations like with Nod, where he willingly tried attacking 6 people purposely rerolling himself, even declaring he "rolled on purpose" cause i was "bored" with his guy anyway.

Now Nod was not killed by any bug or glitch but his own stupidity and has been "reinstated" back to his full level with exp.

Another issue was definately the realization of the power the spell "sleep" has over another player.

Once lotus made his appearance with casting the spell "sleep" on everyone and trying to kill everyone, we quickly realized how overpowered the spell is without being able to resist it (on top of it lasting a lot longer then it should)
You are able to completely immoblize any and all players at level 15 with a mage.
a level 15 mage can essentially kill a level 75 player with sleep. That is overpowered, no matter how you look at it.
I have tried to explain to Gardner, that the spell was becoming an issue long before all this ruckus started.
The fact that MR has not been working has never been an issue, we understand we cant resist spells, but no other spell in the game right now (besides maybe stun) has been completely incompacitating a player like sleep has.

when somone can cast sleep, attack you for a round, cast it on someone else, attack them. cast it on you again before it wears off, attack you. its too overpowered. 1 player can easily handle up to 3 and noone attacking the 1 can do anything. except die.

I dont know if we need a reset, but i think something needs to be declared about the rules in the PVP realm. The hours people have wasted camping other players because they want to kill/roll them have been utterly wasted because at a whim the sysop changed all the rules.



That not only effects the game that affects peoples LIVES. We have to actually put time aside to build rooms stacked full of monsters, to camp somone for days straight, hours of lost scripting. Just to have the sysop intervene and make all our efforts a waste? It's kind of shitty and unfair. It is a lot of work too, takes hours out of our day, but it all is worth it because the end result is "I might atually kill, reroll this guy, get his gear etc"

And yes, people may be upset about my concept of trying to build monster stacked rooms and rerolling another player, and im sorry. But that is PVP. Some people play the game just to get big and get items, other people play it because its fun to kill other people and start drama, some just play and kill when need to etc..

That is PVP. If you dont want to die Play in the non PVP realm. That is why it exists.

Since noone can get rerolled and Gardner is giving out infinite lives now because Gardner says "noone is getting rerolled in this realm"

We might as well make both realms Non PVP.

Also, If nothing is done about the sleep spell, the only thing any player can do about a mage that can kill anyone in the realm with a sleep spell on a glitchy MR system is to reroll the guy.


But wait, we are not allowed to reroll him now. So now we have a mage, with infinite lives (since gardner is giving them to him to stop him from rerolling) and can kill every player in the realm naked.

The game has officially become unbalanced.

I understand that Gardner is trying to accomidate for all the glitchy PVP and I have always agreed with Gardner on his declarations; until he declared noone will be rerolled.