General Survey: What exp percentage would you give to each class and race.

[Zetetic]

>DC
I'll just clarify that I didn't really mean 'half the game' as in half my at keys time is spent pvping - I'm too lazy for that these days. What I meant was that when pvp is removed from the game, you lose an entire section of what the game can (and admittedly not always is) be. Gang intrigues, people backstabbing each other (literally and figuratively). Gang alliances that get argued over and truly broken. Blood (text-based) fueds between players and gangs. Dragging bosses out into people you don't likes script spot. Dominating areas by forcing other people out of them. I'll admit that non-pvp can have some of this, but there is no real backing it up with action, other than the ability to hoard limited items. Being good/evil/neutral only effects where you script and with what items on non-pvp. On a pvp realm, people who are evil WILL be attacked more - even though there isn't much difference between an evil character and one that is neutral or above. Can anyone remember the last time someone did an item trade or sale, and one side didn't pay up? I can guarantee you it happened on a pvp realm.

It is this very chaos that we humans create that feeds a different kind of game on pvp realms. I just wish that pvp itself was still moderately fair, and not just based around attempting to round the other person (oh for the days before quick and deadly was introduced - RIP Mod4).

Also, I would agree with your statement that a Missionary when played well can be a very powerful pvp tool. It's why they have such a high exp table. Admittedly, I still remember pvp as it was, so I remember some very deadly Neko Missionaries causing me all kinds of trouble. It may be that because I remember that time, my views are coloured to what was, instead of what is.

>Thergin
Thanks for reminding me about tracking, I had completely forgotten about it because I haven't had it while playing on Greatermud, but this is one really important ability on a pvp realm. I've tracked people to stashes dozens of times, found people hiding in rooms afk and killed them (I don't care if you think this is dishonourable - Mud has no honour system, and if you do it, you deserve what you get), used it to figure out peoples movement patterns in pvp and of course yes, just tracked them down to kill them.

>Interchange
Rangers are not as useless solo as you think. Can they compare to a plate wearer? No. But with good gear, a Ranger will get probably three quarters of the exp of a solo Paladin - at least with good gear. With bad gear, they do get worse very quickly.

[SluTFisHy]

I'd have to disagree that PVP is half the game.  I mean, do ya really spend 12 hours a day hunting down other players?

I'd say the game is 50% afk, 50% atks.  You can then break up atks into Exping, Boss Hunting, PVP.

That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.

Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.

If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate. We shoulden't build the game around scripting.

The makers of "WOW" don't build the game and update it based on the people who "farm" for gold and items so to make it easier for them to sell their shit on Ebay.  It would not make sense. Zetetic, is the first person who has jumped into this thread with an HONEST and FAIR opinion of how rangers should be looked at.

Everyone else goes "dood, it would be sweet if rangers had this, gimme gimme, it's christmas"

You dont just build classes and races to what would be "better "(for you) you build them to be fair, and you have to take all perspectives of gameplay into account.

[Darmius]

That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.

Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.

If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate. We shoulden't build the game around scripting.

Megamud and scripting are a huge part of this game.  Without them the game would have died off a long time ago.  I don't think they should be the "foundation".  Yet they need to be heavily considered in the design process.

Development needs to choose which way the game will be focused, PVE with PVP or PVP with PVE.  You can't have both as equals, it has been proven over and over again with almost every MMO.

[Rorik]

That is the problem right there. Everyone is trying to build this new foundation for how things should be in "greatermud" by how the game is played through megamud. The game is not supposed to be 50% AFK.
Thats a problem. The game wasn't built to be scripted, it was made to be played at keys. Yes, PVP is half the game. You build up, and level, to kill somone who killed you, or has gear you want.

The instant going from level to level required multiple millions of experience, it was built to be scripted.  If not,  very few people would've continued playing the game.  PvP isn't what it used to be.. it used to be based on ability to kill, not the ability to manipulate the mechanics of the game (surprise rounds, party bugs, etc).  THAT was Player vs. Player.

If people keep useing how you script and megamud as the foundation for how to make the game fair, people are gonna fail everytime in being fair and accurate.

That doesn't have to be the case.  You must realize that if you were required to be at keys for an inordinate amount of time, the number of players would drop even more dramatically.  A lot of people have jobs, families, chores and other things that don't allow for time at keys every day.  I don't want to spend weeks getting big enough to kill a mid-level boss.  Letting a program do the grinding for you and then having the ability to jump into a boss run when you have time is a far better option to play the game than to force everyone to spend more time at keys.

We shoulden't build the game around scripting.... It would not make sense. Zetetic, is the first person who has jumped into this thread with an HONEST and FAIR opinion of how rangers should be looked at.

Read:  "Zetetic is the only one who hasn't pointed out flaws in my ideas and also thinks Rangers are awesome."  My opinions were honest, too.  I wasn't lying when I said what I think of them, nor did I have an ulterior motive in saying what I said.  You may not like it or agree with it, but that doesn't make my opinion unfair (if having an unfair opinion is even possible?)

Everyone else goes "dood, it would be sweet if rangers had this, gimme gimme, it's christmas"

No one has said this.  Those who have disagreed with you all made points about what Rangers don't have and how what they do have isn't worth their exp chart in a PVE.  I agree with Zetetic's assertion that it may be worth it in a PvP realm, but I would go so far as to say that a majority of Realms are PVE.   I may be wrong, but it's at least close to 50/50.   Maybe some changes could be made in regards to charts and abilities when it comes to setting up a game as PVE or PVP.  

You dont just build classes and races to what would be "better "(for you) you build them to be fair, and you have to take all perspectives of gameplay into account.

At least we're in agreement on this part, though perhaps our definitions of balance may differ.  When I point out what a certain class doesn't have, it doesn't mean I think that it should.. just that it doesn't have it and may be at a disadvantage compared to another.  Flame away and hit me with more negative karma.

[DeathCow]

Lets not forget tracking please. 250% exp table was before necko, ninja and rangers only ones with tracking. As far as rangers being a glass cannon thats a little silly, they have healing, rapid healing, skin, anti.

Rangers get nice hp roll 5-9

You cant dodge spells.

So glass cannons, are bard, thief, gypsy,
mage and priest at low levels.

Low AC, low hps.

A good priest even at low level has perfectly decent ac.  Really Priests are pimp, except for solo scripting which they are a bit slow without the right equipement.

[DeathCow]

I'd like to point out that when it comes to PVP I might as well be the mythical Efa.  I'm not out of my element when talking about it.  Tracking is not important.  I can find anyone I want to find with or without it.  People always run in a familiar pattern.

Scripting is Majormud.  Its not a big part of it, its not a huge part of it.  Scripting is Majormud. One of the most important goals on GreaterMud was Megamud compliance.  Which required lots of work and understanding the anti-scripting features in majormud that Megamud requires to work properly.  If the effort to make Greatermud megamud compliant hadn't been made then none of you would be playing it, let alone posting about it.  And no the game wasn't built to be scripted, but it has been since day one.  The game when built had a max level of 12.  Its evolved well beyond its original build.  At this point the game is designed to be scripted. 

Rangers are not a great class, they are, however, far from the worst.  Fixing them, in my eyes, was as simple as an adjustment in their basic stats.  Plate classes are rediculously overpowered in defence.  Classes with less that combat 3 are extremely weak in early game acc.  Ugh...

[Lupus]

Anyone with high combat scripts better than the magic 3s(unless rooming).   There are loads of good suggestions in this thread, mine is a bit different.

Playing a magi-3 class stinks until you several limited mana regen items.  It always has.  You can't start casting efficiently until you either get them or get a spell similar to ntap.   I think lower level spell damage from 1-30 needs to be significantly increased(to reduce casts) or fix the itemization.

I think utility should coincide with usability.  The fact that a druid can remove poison ends up hampering his leveling ability.  A warrior is the perfect example of this.  They have very little utility other than attacking last and eating damage.....this coincides with their usability.  They can take damage and keep swinging.

[Silvix]

This is a nice topic. A few responses are as followed:

Rangers are powerful - no need for chain. Slutfishy was right, you don't jump from tree to tree in chainmail. I think the use of dragon hide is enough for a class that can bs for 250 easily higher up. Not to mention it's usually followed up by a 2-hander (at least that's what i did with my rangers) after the bs so you get maximum damage. The exp table drop I respect... I feel nothing should be 250% because that's insane later in the game, say past 50 when your exp to next level is waaaay high. About the mend opinions. I think, even for a druid, mend is very lacking. It should heal more later on. Even a druid struggles with mend and rhel, only difference between them and rangers is rgen. Even giving a ranger some sort of rgen spell could work.

Plate wearers, plate wearers, plate wearers... everyone keeps bitching about them. Come on, you don't bitch when your Hog Warrior friend pwr lvls you from 20-50 do ya? Of course they are overpowered.. their fucking warriors (or paladins) they need the AC to stay in the front ranks.The only other character i would use as a tank aside from those 2 classes is a mystic or a ninja or anything with insane dodge. A warrior with 100/30 AC is a god (imo) and a higher exp table i can understand here. However, don't do anything else to them.

Thieves - thank god they are now combat 3 they were severely lacking. Thank you for also NOT allowing them chain because, once again, you don't sneak with chainmail on.

Gypsies - no argument there with dodge, great idea.

As for the rest, no big deal. I just keep seeing this and that about rangers and all-in-all, it doesn't matter what you play - your character will have maxed stats someday. Getting them powerful in the end (and everyone misses this point) heavily relies on what race you pick. You wouldn't want a goblin warrior with 70 str leading your party - nah, you'd like a nice 150 str HOG warrior on the front ranks.

[PTERY]

1. If you were to be re-balancing the current mmud classes and races what exp value would you give to them. (exp modifier values should be below 300%)

2. To keep the current exp percentage the same what would you give or take away from each of the current mmud classes and races.

Classes
Thief - keep as is
Warrior - keep as is
Witchunter - down to 115%. They have their advantages but warriors can out-damage and out-tank them in the long run.
Mage - keep as is
Priest - keep as is
Warlock - down to 150%. Maybe if the chart is low people will play them.
Ninja - down to 170%. Ninjas are good but they're strictly melee and I think 170 reflects their limitations better.
Druid - keep as is
Bard - 200. Slightly higher than druids because of combat-3.
Gypsy - 200. This might still be too high.
Missionary - 200. I feel bards/gypsies/missionaries should have the same chart.
Cleric - keep as is
Paladin - up to 230%. Strongest, easiest class to play in the game.
Rangers - down to 230%. Rangers have always only been meh even with 2h and combat-4. I'm tempted to put them lower than paladin but this is already a big drop.
Mystic - keep as is

Races
I think the races are pretty balanced. I'd consider giving humans a negative 5% value (for bards maybe) or eliminating them altogether. Gaunts need a lower chart (30% maybe) or more health/abilities.

[Teferi]

This is a nice topic. A few responses are as followed:

Rangers are powerful - no need for chain. Slutfishy was right, you don't jump from tree to tree in chainmail. I think the use of dragon hide is enough for a class that can bs for 250 easily higher up. Not to mention it's usually followed up by a 2-hander (at least that's what i did with my rangers) after the bs so you get maximum damage. The exp table drop I respect... I feel nothing should be 250% because that's insane later in the game, say past 50 when your exp to next level is waaaay high. About the mend opinions. I think, even for a druid, mend is very lacking. It should heal more later on. Even a druid struggles with mend and rhel, only difference between them and rangers is rgen. Even giving a ranger some sort of rgen spell could work.

MMUD has always irritated me by calling this class a ranger.  Traditionally, all Ranger classes in RPGs are adept with a bow.  Maybe it is due to the difficulty of utilizing range weapons in a cool way through text that they implemented Rangers the way they did?  I always thought it was common knowledge that universally in RPGs rangers were 1H (if a melee at all) and +bow stats.  Im thinking the ranger should be something like:

Combat 3 (1H)
+20% Acc with bow
+4 max damage with bow
+dodge with bow (to help the idea of fighting from afar)
+crits with bow

220 exp table
-AC with melee weap

This is a cool thread btw.

[Gardner Denver]

MMUD has always irritated me by calling this class a ranger.  Traditionally, all Ranger classes in RPGs are adept with a bow.  Maybe it is due to the difficulty of utilizing range weapons in a cool way through text that they implemented Rangers the way they did?  I always thought it was common knowledge that universally in RPGs rangers were 1H (if a melee at all) and +bow stats.  Im thinking the ranger should be something like:

Combat 3 (1H)
+20% Acc with bow
+4 max damage with bow
+dodge with bow (to help the idea of fighting from afar)
+crits with bow

220 exp table
-AC with melee weap

This is a cool thread btw.

+20 acc with a bow I could see, +20% though is way overpowered towards end game I think because that would constantly scale up as your character scaled up.

[Dragon]

rgen on druid need 2 tick 1 round

gnome half elf 10%

missionary gypsy bard 200% yes

witchunter 130% fix Mres make it better

put new class in make fun

[Zetetic]

>Teferi

Rangers are not just known for their ability to use bows in D&D, they are also known for duel-wielding weapons, not being one handed wielders.

I do not feel that mend is under-powered. For it's mana it is excellent. Do remember that we want to keep classes unique. Druids are not healers, the priestly classes are.

Also, remember that chainmail items already have stealth penalties, so that if a Ranger chose to wear it, they would no longer be a powerful sneaker. The problem is that we currently have supernatural stealth. I always felt that this was added to the game because of a lack of precision in how majormud did it's sneak rolls (ie even with 200 stealth you would fail sneak about 5%, instead of say 1/200 rooms).

[DeathCow]

(ie even with 200 stealth you would fail sneak about 5%, instead of say 1/200 rooms).

2%

[jim gilmore]

while chainmail should have  a negative stealth componet. it should also take increased damage from arrows and bolts.
Same as Platemail being damaged more by bastard swords.