Balancing the game by changing combat instead of exp charts

[Zetetic]

This is partially a follow-on thought from the class exp balance topic.

Why should classes be re-balanced when it is changes to the combat system that has caused them to become unbalanced in the first place? The big change to mud's combat (not counting the annoying yellow combat messages that quickly disappeared) came I believe at the same time as Mod5 - the quick and deadly system. I presume that this system was put in place as a bit of a cool idea (it is) and with the intention of making it easier/quicker to kill monsters in combat, hence characters will be able to level up quicker (also a good idea, before this system was added, it was hard to make more than 300k/hr). The problem that I have with this addition to the game, is that it made the game highly unbalanced in favour of the higher combat classes. All characters could now crit more often, which I think was fine, but not only are crits now a more frequent occurance, but critical damage was doubled. The main damage multiplier for criticals went from (I realise the calculation is of course more complicated than this, but I'm going for a general guideline) 2x weapon damage to 4x weapon damage. All of a sudden, the big damage dealer of the realm (spell combat) is almost worthless. Your spells now do less damage than combat, but they also cost mana? Spellcasters really were shafted by this change.

If we re-balanced the combat, not removing q&d, by maybe changing critical damage back to being 2x weapon damage again, I think that all the classes would suddenly feel better balanced with regards to their exp table. I would also like to go back to six swings of combat, and make q&d take effect if you are able to get more than that, in the same way as it is currently set up for five swings. I think that this would also help re-balance the incredibly powerful (but slow) two handed weapons in the later levels. Bash and Smash would of course have to come in line with their damage as well (probably reduce it by 50%).

This change would once again give us the problem of exp taking too long to get. I propose that we simply increase monster exp to double or triple it's current value (The level 1-10 monsters are probably fine), except for the bosses.

I sadly accept that none of my above suggestions will ever happen. People are used to what mud is like now, and won't want to go back. But to those of you that played back in the day, please comment with whether you think the old system was fairer, and the classes more comparable to their exp table under the original combat system.

[Gardner Denver]

Actually I would not mind seeing this happen.  I'd also like to remove strength as a part of accuracy, or at least cap it so that hogs are not so insanely accurate.  Being strong != accurate.

[SluTFisHy]

Zetetic, I believe this is a fantastic idea.

You are completely right, spellcasters REALLY got shafted. Spells WERE supposed to be the big damage dealers and the crit boost made spells close to worthless.

I think crits should be somewhere around 2.5x and go back to 6 swings.

I have never really seen bash or smash as "overpowered" Even if we change the crits back i think bash or smash would still be fine the way they are IMO.

Personally I have never seen smash to be as effective as it was intended to be. I think smash would be far more effective from levels 15-25 but most classes dont even get it until after its pointless. I really think integrating this concept (reducing crits again) will make smash something desirable again for later levels.

I really think this is a great concept. Granted, Our "expected" rates of exp we usually get wont be as high as they were but, it definately makes the game more rounded (instead of BEING rounded) and adds more options for combats types, and brings back the advantage to spellcasters having to rest for fucking mana when warriors can swing endlessly.

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea Zetetic. Kudos mate. Kudos.

[Thergin]

Leveling is too fast, in a matter of months you can be level 50 and complete the game? Slowing it down is not a problem. QND was before mod 5 in a patch between mod 4 and 5.

[Darmius]

I agree, I would love to see this revamped.  I also agree strength should add to accuracy, just keep it from going negative through req str checks.  Run accy off of 80/20 agil, int|wis.

I also agree that leveling is too fast in the sub 50 ranges.  When a board starts, if you can't be atk's for the first 2 weeks you miss the lim train.  Even though half of those lims are replaced with in a few days.

[Rorik]

This change would once again give us the problem of exp taking too long to get. I propose that we simply increase monster exp to double or triple it's current value (The level 1-10 monsters are probably fine), except for the bosses.

I sadly accept that none of my above suggestions will ever happen. People are used to what mud is like now, and won't want to go back. But to those of you that played back in the day, please comment with whether you think the old system was fairer, and the classes more comparable to their exp table under the original combat system.

Reworking combat sounds like an excellent idea.  Spellcasters could use a boost.. hell, the last few I've played I've built more as melee chars than spellcasters.  I'm sure it'd take a lot of work, but it's one of the more balanced ideas I've seen.

As for the levelling/experience issue, I think there's a different way.  I know very little about the mechanics of the game, so I'm not sure if this idea is even possible.. hopefully someone will provide an answer.  I've played on a few other telnet MUDS, and on most of those the experience points you needed remained static from level to level.  However, you gained less and less experience from certain monsters when you killed them.  It'd be like killing an orc rogue giving you 50 experience at level 1, 5 experience at level 10, and 1 experience after level 15.. or something like that.  I don't know exactly what the scale was, just that you gained less experience from each kill as you levelled up.  There are definitely pros and cons to this, but I don't know if it's even possible.. Just an idea.

As far as accepting that this'll never happen, you can't be too sure.  The whole reason this board exists is because people wanted to see some change in the game and to know that people were working to improve it.  I remember quitting for a while (I started about 16 years ago, been playing off and on taking year or multi-year breaks in between.. you all know how it goes..  ::)  ) and coming back and being astonished at the damage that could be done with crits and using quick and deadly.  To be honest, I rarely use a weapon after level 15 if I'm not quick and deadly.. the critical hit damage is just too much to turn down.

Yes, the classes' exp tables were more balanced back in the day.  But tables haven't changed while just about everything else has.  Plate and combat (and therefore strength) are the biggest factors in the game, yet the highest charts belong to leather and robes classes.. figure that out.  In regmud, you can successfully make an Ogre into about anything aside from a Druid, Bard or Priest.. that's messed up.  All this kind of stuff is being addressed here, or is in the process of being addressed, so I don't see how bringing up a solid idea is a bad thing.

[The Crazy Animal]

Actually I would not mind seeing this happen.  I'd also like to remove strength as a part of accuracy, or at least cap it so that hogs are not so insanely accurate.  Being strong != accurate.

I wouldn't mind seeing a lot of things. (snicker)

Lowering crit damage would be nice for one. Grouping swing damage per rounds would be another unless its a special attack why do I need to see 5 swings. (you know we all look at round damage anyway) So if they are all the same then group them that way with a total damage tally at the end. (We could call it combat brief mode.) Lowering the messages per round opens up room for change it means that you don't have to process as much info mentally when atk and like wise for scripts. I know that doesn't sound like it has to do with balance but with that means that you could technically go passed that 5 swing limit with over taxing a persons/scripts eyes. And with lowering the total damage possible it means that you can create a wider spread (damage wise) between combat classes.

example:
Slashing damage msg = whatever!
Slicing damage msg = whatever!
And so on... I'm sure you can imagine it. One total for each type of damage.

Unless I'm in a debug mode I don't need to see everything.

Personally I always though each weapon should have a min agility rating attached to it. If your above it you get a bonus if your below it than you get a penalty same as it works for the str requirements. Beyond that I would also want to remove the duplicate accuracy modifications str puts into accuracy. Having both str and enc in that calculation is pretty stupid in my own opinion. I would like to reduce it to just the enc portions if possible. It still makes str as a portion of the calculation but wouldn't double its effects on it outcome. Something like this could really help balancing out races via stats.

[DeathCow]

This is partially a follow-on thought from the class exp balance topic.

Why should classes be re-balanced when it is changes to the combat system that has caused them to become unbalanced in the first place? The big change to mud's combat (not counting the annoying yellow combat messages that quickly disappeared) came I believe at the same time as Mod5 - the quick and deadly system.

I'll start by saying that I'm not against this idea.  I would however like to point out that balance has ALWAYS been an issue in MMUD.  Even back in 1994 the classes were not equal, one was even so bad it was removed from the game.

I presume that this system was put in place as a bit of a cool idea (it is) and with the intention of making it easier/quicker to kill monsters in combat, hence characters will be able to level up quicker (also a good idea, before this system was added, it was hard to make more than 300k/hr). The problem that I have with this addition to the game, is that it made the game highly unbalanced in favour of the higher combat classes. All characters could now crit more often, which I think was fine, but not only are crits now a more frequent occurance, but critical damage was doubled. The main damage multiplier for criticals went from (I realise the calculation is of course more complicated than this, but I'm going for a general guideline) 2x weapon damage to 4x weapon damage. All of a sudden, the big damage dealer of the realm (spell combat) is almost worthless. Your spells now do less damage than combat, but they also cost mana? Spellcasters really were shafted by this change.

Like the yellow messages, the duck and rolls etc the crits were added to make the game more exciting.  At the time they were added level 20 was a big character.  I'd hate to take power away from low level characters, so to balance crits we'd have to do some interesting scaling...but it could be done.  A huge problem with balancing the current game is that it has really outgrown its clothes.  Its a big boy now, and in order to look right its going to need a major make over.  Problem being..will it be the 'same game' after this make over?  Will the few mudders left want to play it?

If we re-balanced the combat, not removing q&d, by maybe changing critical damage back to being 2x weapon damage again, I think that all the classes would suddenly feel better balanced with regards to their exp table. I would also like to go back to six swings of combat, and make q&d take effect if you are able to get more than that, in the same way as it is currently set up for five swings. I think that this would also help re-balance the incredibly powerful (but slow) two handed weapons in the later levels. Bash and Smash would of course have to come in line with their damage as well (probably reduce it by 50%).

Bash and Smash are great ideas but poorly executed.  But you are right, reworking regular combat should come first.  I see your point about the two-handers being reduced in power by adding a 6th swing, but i think the same effect could be made by adding more speed delay to the items.  I kind of worry that adding an extra swing might hurt low combat classes like gypsies and thieves even more than other classes.  Although, swings were originally reduced to help manage screen scroll, so for the most part its out lived its usefulness.

This change would once again give us the problem of exp taking too long to get. I propose that we simply increase monster exp to double or triple it's current value (The level 1-10 monsters are probably fine), except for the bosses.

The low level bosses really could use an exp boost.  Rather than universally adjusting monster exp, however, we can simply make small adjustments to the exp scaling from one level to the next.  We already took a big swath of high level exp requirements out of the game.  

I sadly accept that none of my above suggestions will ever happen. People are used to what mud is like now, and won't want to go back. But to those of you that played back in the day, please comment with whether you think the old system was fairer, and the classes more comparable to their exp table under the original combat system.

Its been a long road but we are actually just now getting to the point where making changes to the game is becoming possible.  Try not to despair.

Actually I would not mind seeing this happen.  I'd also like to remove strength as a part of accuracy, or at least cap it so that hogs are not so insanely accurate.  Being strong != accurate.

At some point I had suggested changing the stats part of accuracy from (STR-50)/3+(AGILITY-50)/6 to (AGILITY-50)/4+(INT-50)/6+(CHR-50)/8.  This would change a level 1 hog with 100 str from [16.5+(-5)=11.5] +11 acc to [(-7.5)+(-5)+(-3.33)] -15 acc.  A change 26 acc.  Huge.  A dark-elf with s60, i50, w30, a65, h56, c42 at level 1 would go from [3+2+3race] 8 to [3+0+(-1)+3race] 7 a difference of only -1 and still a 22 acc improvement on the level 1 HOG(although the dark-elf build puts alot of CPs into health, and the hog doesn't).

Zetetic, I believe this is a fantastic idea.

Its great when someone posts a good idea, the concept itself isn't exactly the first of its kind.  But its always worth discussing.

You are completely right, spellcasters REALLY got shafted. Spells WERE supposed to be the big damage dealers and the crit boost made spells close to worthless.

Spellcasters really did get the shaft.  Although, I wouldn't say that each of the Magic-3 class don't have redemption in their own way, even if it is only a slight one.

I think crits should be somewhere around 2.5x and go back to 6 swings.

Unfortunately,  This would really disturb the current game dynamic.  I have a feeling that this is the sort of thing Metro would have done on a whim without exploring the ramifications of such an action before hand.  80 Dr hanging tree(example).

I have never really seen bash or smash as "overpowered" Even if we change the crits back i think bash or smash would still be fine the way they are IMO.

I really don't have much issue with smash, although it would require some toning if crits we're radically reduced.  Bash on the other hand is a bit out of hand at lower levels.  Allowing players to have less than 1 swing/round might serve to quell that issue though.

Personally I have never seen smash to be as effective as it was intended to be. I think smash would be far more effective from levels 15-25 but most classes dont even get it until after its pointless. I really think integrating this concept (reducing crits again) will make smash something desirable again for later levels.

There are a few small issues with smash in MMUD.  Its spell like effects are handled poorly.  Smash could have some varied effects such as stun or confusion to vamp it up a bit.  I've never really thought to myself that I'd want to up the damage of combat classes at level 15-25, they are kind of obscene already.  Smash has it is now, would be way more powerful if crits were reduced.  As it is now, bashing 5's can out damage qnd.  If I recall correctly even a fully plated warrior can bash 5's with the throwing knifes at level 40 and avg an obscene amount of damage.

I really think this is a great concept. Granted, Our "expected" rates of exp we usually get wont be as high as they were but, it definately makes the game more rounded (instead of BEING rounded) and adds more options for combats types, and brings back the advantage to spellcasters having to rest for fucking mana when warriors can swing endlessly.

Speaking of being rounded, lowering crits would make PVP far more interesting at high levels.

Without going into quoting Rorik, I'd like to point out that I absolutely low the concept of HOG mages.

Min agility is not a bad idea.  This could be easily done without chaning much.  Just change the field to a 4 digit field.  So 1100 would require 100 str, 2100 would require 100 int, 3100 would require 100 wisdom 4100 would require 100 agility etc.

[Rorik]

Without going into quoting Rorik, I'd like to point out that I absolutely low the concept of HOG mages.

I hate to be nitpicky, but what does that mean?  Loathe.. or love? 

I'm against nerfing races and classes to the point where you can't have a variety of combos and be successful, but I think that a class that depends on intellect shouldn't be able to be so powerful when combined with a race that maxes at a pathetic 60 int.  Of course, at that point you're a melee-style Mage rather than a caster.. but still.. I dunno.  At least it's difficult to get to that point (unless you're being powered), so maybe that makes up for it. ;)

[SluTFisHy]

I'm against nerfing races and classes to the point where you can't have a variety of combos and be successful, but I think that a class that depends on intellect shouldn't be able to be so powerful when combined with a race that maxes at a pathetic 60 int.  Of course, at that point you're a melee-style Mage rather than a caster.. but still.. I dunno.  At least it's difficult to get to that point (unless you're being powered), so maybe that makes up for it. ;)

*IMO* I do not see it as overpowered, I see it as Clever. Someone wants to be a mage, and wants huge hitpoints, and are willing to wait 10 levels after they get a spell to use it instead of using it right away. Hey, thats their option and disadvantage of them choosing a HOG MAGE. You get more HP's, Better Melee, and have to wait 10+ levels after every other mage to use the same spells. This is why we have options in mud, to choose race and class and come up with our own clever combinations of class/race/equipment builds.



Like building a dodgy halfling witchunter or Paladin, and only using dodge gear, could it be clever? who knows. Build one and tell me if it rocks.

[Rorik]

*IMO* I do not see it as overpowered, I see it as Clever. Someone wants to be a mage, and wants huge hitpoints, and are willing to wait 10 levels after they get a spell to use it instead of using it right away. Hey, thats their option and disadvantage of them choosing a HOG MAGE. You get more HP's, Better Melee, and have to wait 10+ levels after every other mage to use the same spells. This is why we have options in mud, to choose race and class and come up with our own clever combinations of class/race/equipment builds.

Like building a dodgy halfling witchunter or Paladin, and only using dodge gear, could it be clever? who knows. Build one and tell me if it rocks.

That's exactly my point with the first part of my opening statement.. I think it's cool that it can work and I've only seen a few people do it with a degree of success.  It just runs counter to conventional wisdom and you're heavily dependent on lims.  Odd combos can be successful if you do it right, but a lot of times you have to have an exact set of equipment which may or may not include lims.. Hell, I love playing weird shit.  Right now I'm running a Halfling Priest on PVE and I have a Neko Paladin in regmud. 

I guess my point was that I dislike having one race (ie Half Ogre in regmud) that is the best option for the majority of classes when it comes to the endgame.  It seems like GreaterMUD's in the process of becoming more balanced, though, and everyone's got a lot of input so hopefully the people putting in the hours can implement the best solution.

[DeathCow]

Oops, Love...

I'm kinda under the impression that the blackwood staff is the only thing that makes a hog mage fuctional..am I wrong?

[kalus]

Instead of just talking about all this, lets setup a 3rd realm and put some of this shit into action

[DeathCow]

Instead of just talking about all this, lets setup a 3rd realm and put some of this shit into action

I think I'd prefer to make a few more tweaks to Gmud's current combat before adventuring into new fields.  

That being said we've barely even discussed what the changes would Actually be.  So I'll try and put something together.

Actually before I do all that.  How would people feel about a radical change in the combat system, something that would require, or at least compel us to make major changes to the monster database in terms of AC and ACC on monsters

Basically I was gonna go for something simple.  Each swing would get a 50% chance to hit, then it would be modified Upword by a players ACC, and Downward by the targets AC.  100 ACC vs 100 AC would have a 50% chance to hit. 

Now..how do we put this to use?

We edit every item in the database, and every monster to work with this system.  And we at this point make some arbitrary decisions about how each defense type should work and how effective it should be.

One question that comes to mind at this point, how should dodge function in terms of DODGE+AC=TOTAL Defence.

Should Silk with its Dodge and AC bonuses be almost the Same as Plate Ac?

[MudHunter]

Oops, Love...

I'm kinda under the impression that the blackwood staff is the only thing that makes a hog mage fuctional..am I wrong?

Mainly its chsu at the endgame. blackwood just levels em faster...


btw, how many cheats are you gunna put into this 'mod10'? I'm jes wondering.