Dodge discussion

[kalus]

Placed a 60% cap on dodge.  Let's see how this works.[/li][/list]

The old, "we can't come up with a working formula so we'll just cap it somewhere". The bane of mmud.

[Gardner Denver]

The old, "we can't come up with a working formula so we'll just cap it somewhere". The bane of mmud.

Since it's possible to get over +100 dodge on a character yeah we kind of had to cap it.  It's either cap it or nurf it.

[kalus]

How about capping based on agility or race?

Arbitrary example:
Ogre caps dodge at 20%
Kang at 40%
Goblin at 60%
Halfling at 90%

[schwagg]

How about instead of capping you just add in diminishing returns for dodge in pvp...seems like a much better idea to me unless you're planning on copying Metro's failures verbatim.

[Gardner Denver]

Do you have any suggestions?

[Zetetic]

Cap dodge at (agility/3)+racialbonus+classbonus-encumbrancepenalty (none +10, light 0, medium -10, heavy -25)

(Off the top of my head the classbonus for mystic/ninja is 25? That's the assumption for the below calculation, also with stats maxed)

Half Ogre Mystic = 55 max dodge (they'd always be none)
Halfing Priest = 60 max dodge (assuming light enc)
Halfling Ninja = 85 max dodge (assuming light enc) <-- This may requiring testing in case it is unbalanced.

Perhaps it would be better to make encumbrance = none:0, light:-5, medium:-15, heavy:-25

Thoughts and suggestions?

[Gardner Denver]

So you suggest that we do away with +dodge items all together?

[Zetetic]

So you suggest that we do away with +dodge items all together?

Nope. I just suggest that the cap for dodge be modified. It is currently set to a hard 60. I think that there should be an advantage to being a high agility race and also mystics/ninjas being able to have more dodge than other classes. Otherwise we're going to see all high strength races in the dodge classes, not a balance of people who want strength and those that want to dodge.

[PTERY]

Cap dodge at (agility/3)+racialbonus+classbonus-encumbrancepenalty (none +10, light 0, medium -10, heavy -25)

(Off the top of my head the classbonus for mystic/ninja is 25? That's the assumption for the below calculation, also with stats maxed)

Half Ogre Mystic = 55 max dodge (they'd always be none)
Halfing Priest = 60 max dodge (assuming light enc)
Halfling Ninja = 85 max dodge (assuming light enc) <-- This may requiring testing in case it is unbalanced.

Perhaps it would be better to make encumbrance = none:0, light:-5, medium:-15, heavy:-25

Thoughts and suggestions?

I'd have to see it in play but I like a formula-based approach rather than an arbitrary cap. These numbers seem a bit high because you have to factor AC in there too. A good-aligned priest can get over 100 ac. If it had 60 dodge as well it would be virtually unhittable.

I like the thoroughness of the thinking behind this though.

[Gardner Denver]

Just so we're clear on this point.  98% dodge in majormud is a bug.  So don't use that as an arguement against what we have done here with dodge.

[Zetetic]

I did think of Priest and the high AC/dodge combo that they get when I created that formula. Gardner, I think that Ptery was more referring to the fact that at a Priest can get over 100AC, and then stack all their dodge on top of that. Remember that to hit you go your accuracy + random modifier vs (dodge+ac) in order to hit (yes I realise the calculation is more complicated than that).

So under our two worst case scenarios: Kang Priest and Halfling Priest
Kang can get 110-115AC? Under my proposed formula, they would only be able to get 30 dodge + an encumbrance bonus. High, but still hittable.
Halfing can do 105-110AC? (I don't have mme handy so I can't do the proper calculation)
With my formula you'll get a max of 60 dodge. This is still high but not (I think) unhittable, and halfling pays for this by having worse wisdom and less HPs than the Kang.

I'm fairly sure that the equivalent of 170 AC is hittable by players - it's kind of hard to tell without doing the exact testing. I believe that the uber-ac of priests is a bit more of a content issue that needs to be sorted out. A silk wear shouldn't have that much.

Also remember that we do not need to settle for pooly thought out designs like the cap of 60 in regular mud. Greatermud can be better and make more sense than it's aged father (or should I refer to Greatermud as more of a clone, created by evil science?).

[schwagg]

Just so we're clear on this point.  98% dodge in majormud is a bug.  So don't use that as an arguement against what we have done here with dodge.

MMUD has heartbeat resists on spells, also heartbeat fail rolls for dodge. Because of this,  MMUD has a 98% dodge cap.

Do you realize my halfling priest has ZERO reason to wear any dodge gear because he literally cannot benefit from any more dodge beyond his stats? Halflings have gone from one of the best race choices to next to rock bottom.

Foresight Anyone?

[Martyr The King]

No idea because my halfing mage had a dodge of 28% Thats 150 agil, 32% encum, gold emblem,silversilk tunic.    Seems close to right maybe considering I need mira and mans or a tiger-claw. But I have never seen it higher then 28% and that's after a week without resetting. As of the recent patch this weekend my dodge has dropped to 12% and I cannot figure out why..

[Gardner Denver]

The 60% cap is a temporary solution to the problem in pvp until we can come up with something better.  

This is no different that when we put in the temporary MR.  A stop gap measure until a better solution can be found.

If anyone has some specific ideas on how this can be fixed that do not overpower dodge then I would be happy to hear them.

[Zetetic]

Can we move this section and my suggestions to a new topic for discussion on the matter? I'd like to iron out my ideas a bit more in the proper place.