Scripters: How much money do you take in...

[The Crazy Animal]

So far the only work that has been put in to it for this idea is the concept that I have so far started to craft. DC agrees with me that the tools I have stated would be highly useful to figuring out a balanced economy yet like many other players still think that they can design it by hand into just the cost/pricing/drop reward structure in the game. I think it needs to be balanced differently though with the balance being the cost needed to get to the highest level one can reach and and everything they have purchased must be equal the finite amount of gold put into the realm to begin and then extrapolated out based on the population of the total player base. And kept in check by removing and adding capital into the game based on that system.

One only needs to look as far as the FED to understand the model of infinite cash generation does not work well and that it constantly inflates and devalues currency. That's the current system the game is kind of working under. Capital only maintains it's value when it is scare.

Right it's not until you have logged the data that the means of the system can you generate the visualization methods need to then lay down firm economic principles..

[schwagg]

I read the extensive post where you lay out the model for the data that would need to be collected and potentially considered in the game logic. I also saw some blunt replies from people who basically don't believe a lot of thought needs to be put into this.

That's funny, you know, since there are several of us on here who thought about these problems years ago and came up with solutions to combat them.  Sometimes  bluntness is a neccesity when people like TCA use their "moderator" or "developer" pulplit to criticize well thought out and proven ideas with not so much as a wink of consideration. Long posts do not equal well-thought-out ideas.

I've tested and implemented many changes to MMUD's overall monetary system.

I've also several years worth of experience with MMO economies across multiple different games.

This is a prime situation in which Occam's Razor can be applied with thorough effectiveness. With my experiences over many years of tackling this problem, I still think that simpler is better. I've never claimed to be a master philosopher, but the concept certainly has solid application here.

MajorMUD's economic feel was always intended to be very freeform. In my opinion it should be kept as such. If you want to dream of your enchanted kingoms, that's fine. The problems need to be addressed first as I mentioned all along, not buried in a wealth of new pseudo-bureaucratic code and forgotten about. The game economy can be scaled with some simple, yet in some cases time consuming work on the content side only.

This is much akin to other debated subjects in fantasy/rpg/mmo games such as: Should characters be required to eat and drink to stay alive? Should characters have to sleep every day to regain body attributes and hp? If it doesn't happen that way in the real world can it happen in MMUD? Should MMUD copy ideas from MMO's and economic systems from other games?

[The Crazy Animal]

Hey I said your idea was a use full temporary fix whats wrong with that? Some times criticizing is positive. We disagree on the scope of the problem again nothing wrong with that. Taking offense at something that was not meant to be offensive is counter productive. Sort posts do not equate to well thought out ideas either by default. You should really think about what you are saying be for you hit post.

I've argued with dc over the concept many times. It is not a lack of consideration as you assume in your arrogance that no one put forth those ideas before. Yes DC would like to rebalanced the economy via adjusting prices. However in an open system that constantly put into the game resources its impossible to do with out a economic crash where money does exceed levels of scarcity that lower its value.

You don't have that problem in a closed system.

[schwagg]

Hey I said your idea was a use full temporary fix whats wrong with that? Some times criticizing is positive. We disagree on the scope of the problem again nothing wrong with that. Taking offense at something that was not meant to be offensive is counter productive. Sort posts do not equate to well thought out ideas either by default. You should really think about what you are saying be for you hit post.

I'm not offended, but after years of your snarky posts my trigger-finger for responses is itchy when it comes to your hare-brained ideas.

Sort posts do not equate to well thought out ideas either by default.

I never claimed my idea was the only way, I simply claimed it works and that it is proven. You have a knack for making overly complex ideas and then fighting for them to the death. Anyone who reads your posts over the last few years can confirm this.

Bottom line: I don't like you in the least, but if you had good ideas I wouldn't berate you for them. You overly complicate nearly everything I've seen you get involved with. Stop trying to gild the lily and then claim that it's out of neccesity.

[The Crazy Animal]

I'm not offended, but after years of your snarky posts my trigger-finger for responses is itchy when it comes to your hare-brained ideas.

I never claimed my idea was the only way, I simply claimed it works and that it is proven. You have a knack for making overly complex ideas and then fighting for them to the death. Anyone who reads your posts over the last few years can confirm this.

Bottom line: I don't like you in the least, but if you had good ideas I wouldn't berate you for them. You overly complicate nearly everything I've seen you get involved with. Stop trying to gild the lily and then claim that it's out of neccesity.

lol well at least your honest in your opinion. Most of my ideas are complex that is true I'm a deep thinker and acknowledge life and its problems are complex there is nothing wrong with that. I like games that reflect that truth and can be played on multiple levels that is why my ideas are complex. I don't think you really understand economics. And that is the only reason I deject your solution. You want to prove your way works show me the data that supports it otherwise quit trying to say it works as that is proof without the virtue of validity and an untruth in it's own name.

[schwagg]

lol well at least your honest in your opinion. Most of my ideas are complex that is true I'm a deep thinker and acknowledge life and its problems are complex there is nothing wrong with that. I like games that reflect that truth and can be played on multiple levels that is why my ideas are complex. I don't think you really understand economics. And that is the only reason I deject your solution. You want to prove your way works show me the data that supports it otherwise quit trying to say it works as that is proof without the virtue of validity and an untruth in it's own name.

You can ask anyone who played on the mod while it was hosted. It worked quite well. A handful of them play here now.

I don't have anything to prove to you. Your development career has consisted of dreaming great big gumdrop dreams; I've actually DONE things with MajorMUD.

I certainly never claimed to be a scholar, but I have more knowledge about economics than you think I do. If you want to learn something you could start here:

http://mises.org/about/3234

If Austrian economics offends you, then you weren't worth talking to in the first place. Consider my involvement in this thread over. It won't ever amount to anything but hot air, just like the rest of your ideas.

[The Crazy Animal]

Seriously that's insulting and your just making yourself look bad. You don't understand what I've done in collaboration with the development team for this project for the last 4 years. I've spent plenty of hours listening to lectures on economics already. I know where to find good information already when I need it. So while you like to state you've already done things in mmud understand this I've already done things in Greatermud. Get over yourself I don't care if 1% of my ideas get into the game all I care about is the few that do make it in work well.

You keep claiming stuff but you don't even bother to list the players that you claim you had play.

[strantheman]

What are you, 12, Schwagg?

How could this constructive post turn into a flame?

Maybe its going to take more than your word, Schwagg, to mean anything to the developers here.

I don't know Animal at all, but I believe in the scientific method. His is the approach I feel would garner more useful data that we could use to learn. Disagreeing with a complex method by saying simpler is always better is just dismissive and insulting.

It would be nice if we could stay away from personal attacks, but I guess its MMUD players talking to MMUD players after all. Posting it in a forum about game development is not going to prevent people from employing ad hominem fallacies.

Trolling the idea forum only to hijack posts and ignore ideas, respond to nothing, and spout claims like "just ask anyone" is useless. So what if Animal has done what you call over complicating things in the past. Stating that as a reason to dismiss his ideas on this matter is also a logical fallacy.

Animal -- I recommend locking this post, starting another one with your idea broken down in a brief again, and I will do the same with my replies, and we can maybe begin a constructive thread again.