Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK

[DeathCow]

Not that I played Paladins much to begin with (I have hard time role-playing as a Jewish Paladin), but changing Paladins to combat-3 means I will never play them.

I understand that Pally's can wield edged weapons but Clerics can out-heal Pally's. In essense both classes are even with the combat-3 change, but a Paladin is more expensive to level. I'd play a Cleric if I ever wanted to play an underpowered priest class :P

Make Rangers combat-3 and I'm switching to Wardancer :P

The paladin's chart is higher because he will gain experience and level faster that the cleric.  The upgrade to All weapons is significant enough that the increased healing from Priest-2 will not overcome the damage difference.

[tab]

I don't think.....your using that word right??  If you're trying to say what I think you're trying to say then you're just not getting it.  Blunt weapons are weaker because they are suppose to be, they have intentionally been made that way, it isn't by mistake. Sharp weapons out damage Blunt weapons...by design.
Thankfully now that I've explained it you can see that the Paladin isn't necessarily less, because having access to Sharp, is more than access to Blunt.
You're manipulating the truth in an attempt to justify your argument. 

The paladin's chart is higher because he will gain experience and level faster that the cleric.  The upgrade to All weapons is significant enough that the increased healing from Priest-2 will not overcome the damage difference.

No, it's an itemization issue and this is incorrect.  Non-limited blunt weapons are extremely competitive, and outright better, throughout the the level tiers.  At the high end it kind of falls apart, but while leveling?  A cleric will be able to use similar to superior weapons, fight the same, heal better, and pay less experience for it the entire way through.

But, just in case you don't believe me, let's break it down.

Level 20:

1h's --
Runic Warhammer - 10 - 18, 1675 speed, +9 acc
Spectral Sword - 5 - 18, 1700 speed, +3 acc

Runic Warhammer is better if you are 1h + shield.  And at level 20, you probably should be 1h + shield.

2h's --
Etched Adamant Greatsword - 10 - 34, 2400 speed, +2 acc
Dwarven Craft Hammer - 8 - 30, 2350, -10 acc

Dwarven Craft Hammer is worse than the greatsword, but not really by a lot.  -10 acc hurts, but on GreaterMUD, it hardly means a thing.

Level 30:

1h's --

Etched Adamant Warhammer - 10 -25, 2000 speed, +15 acc
Starsteel Mace - 11 - 26, 2300 speed, +5 acc

Sunsword - 8 - 25, 2300 speed, +8 acc (25% chance to cast 6-30 fire damage, which I think works out to ~4.5 extra damage per hit)
Starsteel Scimitar - 7 - 25, 2000 speed, +10 acc

The Sunsword's proc might edge it ahead of the Starsteel Mace, but it's a real narrow margin.

2h's --

Giantwood Club - 12 - 40, 3000 speed, +5 acc
Dragontooth Trident - 14 - 45, 3500 speed, +3 acc

Pretty close there, again.  Giantwood will swing 3's, Dragontooth will swing 2/3.  Advantage might go to the Giantwood because of casting breaking combat rounds, etc.

Level 40:

1h's --
Stormhammer - 15 - 40, 3200 speed, +4 acc, (25% chance to do 5 - 20 damage)
Vorpal Sword - 10 - 30, 3000 speed, +10 acc, +10 crits

Close match.  It would require more than what I have at my disposal to see which is better.

2h's is the Gargantual Stone Maul vs the Wicked Bone Scythe.  Which we already discussed.  But there's also the Sharktooth Trident, 15 - 55, 3300 speed, -15 acc, lacerate proc.  Which is a lot closer in comparison with the GSM.

Special Level 45!

Jewel-Encrusted Warhammer!  11 - 32!  2200 speed!  +5 acc, 100% chance to proc 5-15 damage on hit!  This is better than any non-limited, non 5th quest, 1h weapon.  Therefore it'll be the last 1h weapon for a sword and board cleric OR paladin.  This is even ground.  This is the paladin losing.

Level 50 opens up 5th quest weapons, and a Cruel Bone Greatsword, which is 22 - 43, 3500 speed, disease proc.  Which isn't a clear step up from the Sharktooth Trident, but at least now you'll swing your Wicked Bone Scythe 3 times, but the Cleric will swing his TSM 4.

[DeathCow]

I appreciate the effort here, but its not a great picture of whats going on. If my paladin really doesn't get access to ANY lim weapons then I can always hit up a heavy spear/dtt/wbs and start smashing at 25. And keep that up until I can swing my weapon of choice better.  That said I would consider lowering the chart a bit if it does play out the way I'm picturing it. 

One thing I hadn't considered is that with removing STR from the ACC equation races choices do change quite a bit. Lemme think about what to do with Paladins...just not sure.

[kalus]

This whole discussion is completely pointless. The biggest problem is the combat system and the formulas. They need to be revised and TESTED and then revised and TESTED and TESTED again and then tested some more. Not changed and left broken for a year.

[DeathCow]

This whole discussion is completely pointless. The biggest problem is the combat system and the formulas.

No offense DeathCow, but you don't even play and have no idea how current GMud is working. Paladins in the current GMud are under powererd if anything. The massive enc you need to get decent AC kills their combat and they get owned by light dodging classes (like dwarf druids.... )

IMO the way they've handled ENC is aweful, that said thanks for your constructive input.  

Btw is the "whole" discussion pointless or just the parts you don't like?  Are the parts discussing the combat system and formulas pointless?  Do I not know what going on because things change so much? OR

left broken for a year.

not getting changed?

[kalus]

IMO the way they've handled ENC is aweful, that said thanks for your constructive input.  
Btw is the "whole" discussion pointless or just the parts you don't like?  

You can't balance classes without deciding what fundamental changes you are going to make to the combat system.

Its like.. designing a race car without first knowing if it will be racing on dirt, tarmac, drag strip, hill climb....

Are the parts discussing the combat system and formulas pointless?  

Admittedly I didn't get that far, its a start.

[Thergin]

Cleric VS Paladin, well as playing a cleric this push, and also in the old combat system.

I have to say that I agree it doesnt look right, I will take a cleric over a paladin, most of the issues are as above much more weapon selection, I think combat 3 for paladin is a good move, to give someone access to the best armor, a little healing,cure and combat 4 was very overpowered especially low level.

Cleric have very low spell differences in healing until greater healing at level 15. I realise that level 1-15 is much faster to get these days and most people dont care about it and skip through but on a fresh restart it makes a big difference.

Gypsy   4-7      3   1hd   Leather   170   Mage-2   Dodge +10, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP,Meditate3
Bard           4-7     3   1hd   Leather   150   Bard-3   Stealth5, Locks, Traps

I played a gypsy last push, and the whole time I wished I was a bard, because the spells are very similar, where the bard lacks some damage spells compared with gypsy, I didnt really use them and out leveled, them the bard gets much better party spells, and they are all very similar.

Bumping the combat 3 is good, and adding dodge is good. Bumping bard-2 to Bard-3 will increase the natural mana regen, and a bard doesnt want to sit around meditating.

I guess what i am getting at is maybe bard should goto 160% exp table.

[DeathCow]

Cleric VS Paladin, well as playing a cleric this push, and also in the old combat system.

I have to say that I agree it doesnt look right, I will take a cleric over a paladin, most of the issues are as above much more weapon selection, I think combat 3 for paladin is a good move, to give someone access to the best armor, a little healing,cure and combat 4 was very overpowered especially low level.

Cleric have very low spell differences in healing until greater healing at level 15. I realise that level 1-15 is much faster to get these days and most people dont care about it and skip through but on a fresh restart it makes a big difference.

I'm becoming less opposed to adjusted paladins chart downward a bit...I'll think about the options with that...

Gypsy   4-7      3   1hd   Leather   170   Mage-2   Dodge +10, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP,Meditate3
Bard           4-7     3   1hd   Leather   150   Bard-3   Stealth5, Locks, Traps

Bard-3 was actually a mistake on my part, should be bard-2.  I'm not sure how a feel about adding meditate back to bards...I feel like I'd be happy putting back if shockwave was nerfed....

I played a gypsy last push, and the whole time I wished I was a bard, because the spells are very similar, where the bard lacks some damage spells compared with gypsy, I didnt really use them and out leveled, them the bard gets much better party spells, and they are all very similar.

Bard has a better bless set, while gypsy will have better damage from spells(spell mod as well)
Bumping the combat 3 is good, and adding dodge is good. Bumping bard-2 to Bard-3 will increase the natural mana regen, and a bard doesnt want to sit around meditating.

I guess what i am getting at is maybe bard should goto 160% exp table.

Hurm...Gypsies, which you're comparing them to, are getting quite a bit of spiffying up....hurm.

You can't balance classes without deciding what fundamental changes you are going to make to the combat system.

Its like.. designing a race car without first knowing if it will be racing on dirt, tarmac, drag strip, hill climb....

Admittedly I didn't get that far, its a start.

As a fan of House, I do appreciate your use of metaphor.  The idea is to put all the ideas out there at once so that when a decision is made in one department the others are considered as well.  Its like a tampon commercial.  You could have the blue water, or the girl jumping around seemingly period free...or you could find a way to get that bitch to pour the water herself while jumping.

[Thergin]

I forgot to comment on combat accuracy being back to agility, as much as I did used to love agility being the most powerfull stat, I dont like how str has not become that, so we need a balance, in real life str does effect accuracy as you are able to hold the weapon easier. Maybe only for heavier weapons like 2 handers or something. Either way I wouldnt like to see str not effect accuracy, I just want to see the formula more balanced, and having int and charm effect is a good idea.

Hog need 150 str and 150 health reduced, and its other stats balanced a little more, its too extream. 140 str, 130 health or something

[Gardner Denver]

Rather than remove strength completely from the acc formula how about this

Let's say that a weapon requires 80 str to wield

If you are < 80 str - 1 acc to a max of - 9 (based on your str vs str required for weapon)
If you are = 80 str +/-0 acc
If you are > 80 str then +1 acc up to a max of +9 (based on your str vs str required for weapon)

So with the above example:  75 str would be -5 acc, 80 str = 0, 85 str = +5 acc  Nothing over 89 str would count and nothing below 71 str would hurt as far as acc goes.  That gives strength the ability to add 19 acc to any class providing they pick the proper weapons.   i.e. no halflings using weapons that require 90 str ect....

[Thergin]

great idea gardner I really like it.

[schwagg]

Rather than remove strength completely from the acc formula how about this

Let's say that a weapon requires 80 str to wield

If you are < 80 str - 1 acc to a max of - 9 (based on your str vs str required for weapon)
If you are = 80 str +/-0 acc
If you are > 80 str then +1 acc up to a max of +9 (based on your str vs str required for weapon)

So with the above example:  75 str would be -5 acc, 80 str = 0, 85 str = +5 acc  Nothing over 89 str would count and nothing below 71 str would hurt as far as acc goes.  That gives strength the ability to add 19 acc to any class providing they pick the proper weapons.   i.e. no halflings using weapons that require 90 str ect....

This is a much better idea than removing str from the formula altogether, which I think would be overcorrecting the problem.

[Excarkun]

1   Human   30%   str40-110   int40-100   wis40-110 agil 40-100   health40-90 charm40-100    Tracking   
an idea

wardancer mage 1? why not druid 2 and make some spells for them

[kalus]

Some high level ideas about how I would go about revamping the combat system

Nothing is static. +5 dodge doesn't give you 5% dodge across all classes at all levels until you hit an arbitrary cap

Formulas need to take into account class, race and level and current stats.

A +5 dodge item will give a ninja who already knows how to dodge, more raw dodge % than it will give a druid. A halfling will get more raw dodge out of the same item than a dwarf, and a char with 130 agil more raw dodge than a 90 agil char.

So the end raw result  in terms of dodge % of wearing the same +5 dodge item might look like this:

halfling, ninja, 150 agil - 5% dodge
neko, ninja, 130 agil - 4% dodge
dwarf, ninja, 90 agil - 3% dodge
dwarf, druid, 90 agil - 2% dodge
dwarf, druid, 40 agil - 1% dodge

The 2nd major change is, as you increase in level, there is a diminishing returns system on all modifiers.

level 10 - +5 dodge = +5% dodge
level 20 - +5 dodge = +2.5% dodge
level 30 - +5 dodge = +1% dodge
etc....

This makes it possible to put ever more increasingly powerful items in the game without high level characters becoming uber powerful. And a level 75 running around wearing platinum bracers is just insanely stupid. Mud badly needs better and more powerful high level items.

One more thing, there MUST be a +spell power modifier added to the game just like there is +max damage. Spells should also crit. (healing spells too)

[PTERY]

Was just gonna say re: cloth/silk armour changes, I like cloth for priests and mystics since they are strong enough already, but I think mages need the advantage and should remain a silk class.