John Howard is my new hero.

[Gardner Denver]

Prime Minister John Howard - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia " "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

[dzhay]

John Howard was voted out in 2007 and actually lost his own safe seat in parliament - the first time an incumbent prime minister has lost his seat in parliament, from memory. Although, it was not connected to this issue.

I would also question whether all of that was written/said by Howard and Costello. I think it is unlikely even he would have hammered that point so hard or gone on about the Christianity bit, given the majority of Australians are non-religious. I could be wrong, but I would be quite surprised.

As for the Sharia Law bit, it's not like Muslims are the only ones teaching that there are two legal/moral systems. All Christians, Jews, Hindus and most Buddhists subscribe to a moral/religious code that prohibits them from doing this or that. Accordingly, they see two systems of moral authority in exactly the same way. There are also far more Christian fundamentalists in America and Australia than there are Muslim fundamentalists. They also have a far greater influence.

My point is that while it absurdity of fundamentalist Muslims wanting to institute Sharia law on a historically Christian country is offensive, for most people the desire (and in America, frankly, it seems like a reality a lot of the time) of far-right evangelical Christian fundamentalists wanting to force people to live according to their selective interpretation of Christianity is equally morally repugnant.

[Gardner Denver]

The real pity is that we have so few leaders in the world who aren't afraid to stand up and say "Hey, you're wrong.  You need to change, not us."

They are all so worried about offending someone.

[Jigga]

I've seen this before, but it's awesome.

U.S. leaders need to firmly adopt the the "love it or leave it" policy in regards to our culture.

I really don't get it, if things are so much better where "you're" from, then wtf are you doing here.

[Fuxsiloh]

First up, if you love Howard so much please take him. We did our best to encourage him to suicide in 2007 when the Australian public voted his government out of office and, for only the second time in history, the sitting PM out of his own seat of Bennelong! Howard was one of the most sleezy and repugnant Prime Ministers we have ever had.
Take him, he is yours! I will also throw in Abbott (current opposition leader, he will adjust nicely).

Howard CV: He was a closet xenophobe and was one of the last supporters of the White Australia policy. He refused to apologise to the indigenous population and demonised refugees to win the 2001 election, falsely claiming they they threw children overboard when Navy intelligence knew this was not the case. He dragged us into the war in Iraq, despite having the largest protests in every major capital city ever. If you were not white and Christian then, in his eyes, you weren't a real Australian.

I should also point out in defence of our country, Howard was also deluded. Most Australian's do not give a fuck about God or religion (except for Queensland which is described here as God's country).

Let's face it - refugees are generally more productive than some of the trash that already live here. I think we should have an exchange program. If you are long-term unemployed then you have a "citizen exchange" with someone from an impoverished country. 

And yeah, dzhay is right. Most of the crackpot extremists here in AUS are Christian - you can have them too if you want :)

On another matter, these floods here are pretty crazy. Check out some of the photos:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/01/australian_flooding.html

I think photo 22 sums this country up nicely.

[Gardner Denver]

Those floods are no joke.  If the rain doesn't stop soon Australia is going to sink!!  My daughters younger sister is currently trapped by those flood waters about 3 hours away from her home.

As to Howard, I don't want him per sey, I want a politician that is HONEST enough and gutsy enough to say what is really on his mind. 

To stand up for the principals & beliefs that this country was founded on, and strong enough to tell the hand wringing, white flag waving, mamby pamby, tree hugging liberals to go jump ship.

Kind of like Bush 2 only less stupid. ;)

[Fuxsiloh]

I need to brush up a bit on my US history, but wasn't your country founded on some fairly liberal principles?

Your preamble says something about general welfare and you had some pretty radical amendments. Does the name Thomas Paine ring any bells? ;)

I think your country was founded by radicals, sensible radicals, but still radicals. Lots of what is contained in your constitution and amendments was an outright rejection of a monarchy and having some dipshit King as a head of state calling all the shots. Which was a kind of norm back then, or dare we use the word 'status quo'?

It saddens me that your country was so fucking awesome back then and your people have allowed it to turn into the quagmire it is today (and that isn't the good Quagmire either ... giggity giggity!)

Go secular, fuck off religion all together it is so dated that it makes its followers look like museum exhibits. Formulate a set of principles you can all agree on - the 'law', that thing your judges keep enforcing to piss you off. With this approach you can still kick out Islamic fanatics but it will also allow you to nuke Utah.

And I should have probably addressed this first, but you cannot get an honest politician in modern politics. They would get decimated by lobby groups and their henchmen (the media). Deal with a way to limit the power of lobby groups and the media and honesty may return to politics. Until then, suck it up :)

[Gardner Denver]

I don't think that the founders wanted this country to be fundamentally transformed once they set the constitution in place.  And that is exactly what has happened.  Our current leader, Comrade Party Chairman Obama ran on the promise to fundamentally transform the United States.  And the idiots still elected him....

While America is more than willing to open her arms to people from all faiths (or no faith at all), from all countries, and from all walks of life, we don't want you to come here and try to change the USA into whatever country you just left. 

If you want a country where all documents are printed in spanish, allow me to suggest Mexico as a destination.  If you want to live under Islamic Law, let me suggest one of a number of Middle Eastern countries you can try.

We try our best to make allowances for everyone here, and in the process we're losing ourselves.  I don't want to press 1 to hear my message in English.  English is the language we speak, it is not an opt in/out kind of thing!  If you want to come here, live here, work here, that's fine.  Do it legal like, and learn the language.  No jumping over the fence at 2am and then crying about it when you get caught 6 months later and sent home.

I don't think that's asking to much.  I don't think it's asking to much for a leader that feels the same way.

[Gardner Denver]

Oh, and the Preamble says:

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for The United States Of America"

Did that from memory by the way.

[Fuxsiloh]

When we talk about 'fundamental change' I am going to take that as the social and institutional change, right?

You are also going to need to update me on how your country is "fundamentally changing" and, assuming it is, given the position your country is/was in when Obama was elected, wouldn't fundamental change be a good thing?
Correct me if I am wrong but weren't you involved in two futile wars and have an economy which was going to crash and burn and drag the world with it? Under the circumstances I would want change too.

The whole immigrant thing is not something I completely disagree with. Needless to say that often 'bad apples' are given disproportionate attention (they are in AUS anyway). Most of our immigrants are fucking awesome - way better than the scum who bludge on welfare benefits. As I said, citizen exchange for long-term unemployed = win. Could be a new show, like Wife-Swap, only we can call it Scum-Swap.

Always remember Gards, change is inevitable, don't fight it, direct it. Love as you may 18th century US, it has to move on :) and our offer to send you John Howard still stands  :P

[Gardner Denver]

Do we need to get out of Iraq?  Yes.  Still do.  We went in with a bad plan or no plan at all.  That was a mistake.
Do we need to get out of Afghanistan?  Yes.  Still do.  We need to get the job done and come home.

Do either of these transform the country? No. 

What Obama has done in 2 years and the Democrats have done in the two years prior to that, has pushed us almost to the brink of being a communist country.

We'll pay you to sit unemployed for 99 weeks.
We'll give you free health care.
We'll spend a trillion dollars bailing out the banks for bad mortgages, but we'll still allow them to repo your house.  So they get their money AND your home.
We'll bail out the unions & CEO's of the auto makers while they continue to downsize, lay off workers, etc.
Let's grant citizenship to all illegals because they vote democrat and will keep us in office!


Yeah I'm pretty sure we didn't need that kind of transformation.

God help us to much more of Obama and there won't be a country left to save.  I tell ya what, we'll take Howard, you guys can have Obama.

[Fuxsiloh]

I think the wars your republican friends dragged you into have cost more than the bailouts. And stupid wars make it harder to make the decision for good wars, like invading Mexico or North Korea or Iran. The consequences may be experienced much later but it is still a transformation.

I should also point out that if there was a scale out of 100 of communism, the US would be maybe 16. Maybe Obama has moved you up a couple points, but you are well off being pushed to the brink of being a communist country. I did a third year research essay on the definition of communism and I think I am being generous giving you a 16/100.

Temporary unemployment benefits are a good thing. Long term unemployment benefits are a bad thing. Here in AUS we have long term unemployment benefits, which seriously suck arse. Temporary is good because it provides a cushion for people who get fucked over and are skilled. Take this example, you are some specialist engineer and lose your job. You have to work in a burger store to get by, thereby limiting the time you have to find work which utilises your skills. That scenario is failing the country and the individual. Short term unemployment benefits are awesome. Long term on the other hand, well, see my previous post on Scum Swap. But even saying that, the free market system REQUIRES an unemployed class. If you didn't have an unemployed class you would have wage-push inflation, so really, you could think of the unemployed as a pseudo-employed (if that will make you feel better) :)

Free health care should have limitations and I have done some research on that too, but really it is an essential part of a modern civilised society. Especially since those unemployed people you NEED are actually doing a public service!

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Bush Jr kick-off the "bail, bail, bail" bonanza? Sure, Obama may have thrown good money after bad but there is a good argument, using causation, that your republican puppet is the mastermind behind that disaster.

You have actually used unions and downsize and lay off workers all in the same sentence there  ??? I have never been a member of a union, but again, written some essays on them and not sure they are usually strong advocates of downsizing and lay offs. I think you will find your corporate puppet masters behind that one.

Again, I am rough on US history but isn't the illegal amnesty thingo bi-partisan and didn't Bush Jr kick-start it in 2000? Sure, Obama may have continued it, but  he would cop a backlash from the Hispanic voters if he bailed on it, why would he willingly give votes to the same party who has arse fucked your nation?

So yeah, we will swap you Howard and for a special time only, we will throw in 1.5 megalitres of water in exchange for Obama.

Oh yeah, we want a refund on the dodgy JSFs you sold to us. China and Russia have already have superseded them!

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2010/09/24/the-truth-lethality-of-the-jsf-made-plain/

[Gardner Denver]

I think we agree on the wars basically.  Not 100% but pretty close.

I did mention unions & layoffs/downsizing in the same sentence because unions share as much of the blame for the current problems as Republican deregulation and NAFTA do.  Possibly more so.

The logic is very simple.  Labor and legacy costs.  Unions continue to drive that cost upwards while countries such as Mexico say "Hey we'll do it for 1/3 that cost"  Unions can't expect to win in the long run against that.

We'll take Howard, send you Obama, and you can keep all that damn water over there.  We're in a deep freeze here right now lol, we got enough ice & snow.

[Fuxsiloh]

If you won't take the water maybe we can take half of Obama?  ???

Never understood the push for free trade for the reason you just gave. In AUS we have some decent labour and environmental laws (laws I consider decent anyway, such as it being illegal to employee a 7 year old and making it illegal to dump production waste into waterways etc). But some other countries do not have such laws. So take an example of a tyre - we can manufacture it here in AUS and it might cost us $20 ( as per the regulations mentioned above) whereas in a country which does not have those regulations the cost could be $2. Why should we have to compete with them when they are not required to comply with the same standards? Fail.

Now the US is one of the biggest advocates of free trade. This is lifted straight from wiki:

"Stances of organized labour shifted when governments of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher took strong stances to break down trade barriers entirely to reduce government power; thus allowing the market to be more important."

The objective of Thatcher and Reagan was to destroy the unions. They did a pretty good job of it too.  But you need to remember that unions are just trying to protect their members (workers). If upper management are trying to cut costs which will mean you can't feed your family you are going to tell them to fuck off and use what little power you have to resist. You then have the situation you have touched on above where the company cannot compete internationally by maintaining the wages the workers need. I wouldn't blame the unions in this scenario though, I would blame your dumbarse republican dipshit president (Reagan) who deregulated your market in the 1980s. It was shorterm gain for longterm pain, but given the lack of foresight of modern political leaders it is no surprise.

I should point out that our Labor government here in AUS (equivalent to your Democrats) undertook the same type of reforms in the 1980s. So irrespective of which side of the fence you sit, it was a stupid move and we are going to suffer the consequences for generations to come.

So yeah, on Obama - don't hate the player, hate the game :)

[Excarkun]

Ok I can write an Encrypted book now, but I got class in a min so I?ll go over the typo?s and spelling mistakes later.

Hold Up Fuxsiloh , I know you are  liberal and you seem to believe what your main liberal Aussy Press sells you about the U.S. and even the U.S. Press itself does it own good job at that too. They always with hold facts that distort the truth to always make it look like one party is always right and the other is bad.  But over all both sides of our Political systems are corrupt, although more so the Democrats side, which is more solely to blame for our Economic situation the U.S. is in right now. 

I don?t like either party or will ever say I?m a republican or democrat they both don?t represent me and never will unless I can contribute millions of dollars to lobbyist and towards their campaigns for reelections. And make back door deals once out of office to buy truckloads of their memoirs (books). Also to have dates setup in advance to have them over to speak at Lunen?s or dinners at what I think X-President Slik Willy is $100,000 a hr to speak at these? It?s a gig I?m sure there other ways these people making money to sell out the country for the better good of the Corporation of the world or countries I do suspect that my gov?t has lobbyist for other counties agendas as well.   cough CHINA

Why were we in Iraq or still are. Well Simple, Not for weapons of destruction.. Which was really weapons that France was selling to Iraq , which was a NO brainer.
OIL , BLACK GOLD.. it is what run?s the world. Who needs the most gas and oil today?  What country is flying in development into a economic juggernaut ?CHINA.. As of now one of the largest oil wells in the world is in Iraq, with our military presence it easy now to control and get to that oil and truck it out. I had a buddy I haven?t talked to in about 3 years or more take a oil trucking job in Iraq making over $80,000 a yr or some godly amount of money and he was saying they would take as many drivers they can get. Imagine that.
Now why in Afghanistan, No clue other then wanting a Military presence in case we want attack Iran or another country in Middle East. Or like that wikis leaks said the lobbyist for Saudi Arabia wants us there.

Now as for the war being the reason our Economic down turn just doesn?t make a bit of scene. War?s make money, gov?t spends that $$ on tanks guns military gear, clothing, and supplies. These things are all built in factories, hopefully built in the U.S., which would create or keep people employed in those jobs. The Military pays their soldiers some sweet pay to be in Iraq or Afghanistan, believe it is called hazard pay or something like that which goes back into the economy.

I Know of one thing that Bush did that was in my opinion not good for the Economy was to loosen up some of laws for illegal immigrant farm hand workers. Also Bush pushed for opening up our Highways to Mexican trucking companies to compete at with their low pay rates vers what an average American trucker makes now, that was NAFTA.  http://www.infowars.com/u-s-proposes-reopening-highways-to-mexican-trucks-through-pilot-program/
Are you kidding me?


Now the reasons why the U.S. is in a Economic Mess, It?s Simple. Liberal Polices in acted during the 8 years Slik Willy was in office. That Very well off Man, (RICH)  Bill Clinton, sold out this country on NAFTA, Free Trade with ASIA, Lessening laws and rules on mortgage loans to low income people (btw helped bankrupt a lot of small banks so the bigger ones can eat them up and then get bailed out themselves later). Allowing the gas/oil companies to start jacking up the prices at the pumps which is causing inflation all over the U.S. for years now.
Nafta it self caused a lot of American Workers and unions to Fold, or look for less paying jobs elsewhere. Free trade with Asia is doing that also but not just with manufacturing jobs but also some service jobs as well. And get this Clinton even push in this free trade with Asia bill incentives for companies to move offshore WTF?  Yea this man was so good at fucking the Middle American working class in the ass and say he was doing America
Good. Bill Clinton was a great Politician, lied a lot and had the press still love him. He even stated more then once (that lying POS) by saying jobs would NOT go over seas because of Free trade. Well guess what why would he give a shit now his done his job, term in office is Over and is loaded with money. The only Job he didn?t get done was what the Healthcare companies wanted that is Gov?t health care. Also what will not ever reported again and shoveled under the rug is the Stock market crashed under Bill Clintons Watch in Sept of 2000. This was the biggest indicator of shit to come, but yet again liberal press or controlled press don?t report or at the time want to say that the man in charge was at fault, well he was.

Now the new dirt ball comes in and does what the others presidents did too. Well that would be what the lobbyist for Corporation really wants. So now Mr. Obama give us Govt Health Care, (AHH FUcK) but Guess who really push for this and why? NO not Doctors or the sisters of the poor..
NOPE 
HEALTH CARE Insurance Companies.. Why?
Cause they can now maximize their Profits. Now every company in U.S. has to provide Health insurance, so that more $$ out of your pocket goes into theirs because it is going to come out of your salary. Furthermore at a certain age depending on your income you have to register into this new gov?t run health care insurance. So the more Expensive pricey group of people in a work place or once they retire they are now covered Not by the insurance companies but by your tax dollars and the govt run Health Insurance.
This would give them(Govt) Power over the Elderly to decide who people get treated by and where, when or how. I?m sure this will get sticky once the gov?t says to a family with a relative on life support that they wont pay for it anymore pull the plug. I got a lot of this information from someone that is a lobbyist close to my states capital but knows what really going on. I may have missed some shit but I tried to give out the majority if what I was told.

This is a tip, I bet People should invest into these Insurance Companies Now they are going to make Big Bucks soon. Thanx to Obama. I?m sure once he also done in office he gets a nice payday off book sells and what not. I?m sure the banks will be thrilled to buy his books for all the Bail out Money he gave them also.

Over all my opinion stay?s the same, I think we need new government system that doesn?t allow lobbyist, they got to go. The 2 party system in America Needs to go. Furthermore I truly think all our presidents are ass wipes. Not just Bush, but Clinton and Obama as well.
And I?m all for tariffs on all imports till our economy get back on track.

But Fuxsiloh can have all three of those fuckstix  for your one, or better YET In a heartbeat I?ll trade The Clinton years for your Howards. And Your govt can have all the Clinton's polices togo with him, lets see if your in a recession or worst in the years after. I bet my left nut you will be.