Doing away with character cps in the current form. Something to ponder.

[Gardner Denver]

Please read the entire post before losing you mind.  :-[

We all know the current system, and I think we could probably mostly agree that that system helps with some of the unbalanced over powered combos that you see in the realm.  What if we switched to a system like this instead:

Base line stats for your race is how you start the game.   No 100 cps to distribute.  Every level you get exactly 12 cps.  No matter how far over baseline you go, the cost to raise a stat +1 is 1 cp.  Based on your class type, the engine decides how to distribute your 12 cps giving preference to the 2 or 3 stats that will benefit you the most.

Example:
Mystic: +3 agility, +3 health, +3 strength, +1 willpower, +1 intellect, +1 charm every single level.
Mage: +4 intellect, +2 health, + 2 strength, +1 willpower, +1 charm, +1 agility every single level.
Warrior: +4 strength, +4 heath, +1 everything else.

The concept of stat maxes would be removed and would be limited only by how high you could train your character on a realm.

[wokesmeed]

Something else to ponder speaking of balance... How about have spellcasting have some effect on spell damage? or raise the spell caps to compensate for level 80 charchs?

[y2duhh]

I dislike it and here is why,  what if I decide to make something like a neko warrior? I want to raise strength and health more than I want to raise agility for enc and such. Same with a hogre gypsy/bard/ninja/mage  there are stats I want to raise very fast and others that I want to raise later on.

[Gardner Denver]

I dislike it and here is why,  what if I decide to make something like a neko warrior? I want to raise strength and health more than I want to raise agility for enc and such. Same with a hogre gypsy/bard/ninja/mage  there are stats I want to raise very fast and others that I want to raise later on.

It could obviously be tweaked to account for races or the racial baselines could be tweaked, or the concept of race based stats could be removed all together for that matter in lieu of class based stats.

[Gardner Denver]

Something else to ponder speaking of balance... How about have spellcasting have some effect on spell damage? or raise the spell caps to compensate for level 80 charchs?

Well it's possible to do this obviously.  Perhaps a more balanced solution would be to make higher spell casting increase your odds of getting the higher end damage based on the difficulty associated with the spell but leave the current caps in place.

[Chaucer]

  My gut reaction without giving this much thought is.. It work be great to have no true max stats; however not have players distribute stats on their own takes away from the gaming experience (trying new builds, learning what works best).   

[Gardner Denver]

It could be coded so that the user had some control over the distribution of the cps with the provision that each stat must get something each level but not allow players to become super high in any one stat early on in the game.

[essgee]

This is a terrible idea and strikes at the heart of the MajorMUD style gameplay. Auto assigning of stats is how modern games have become so one dimensional (Diablo3 anyone?)

Making everything level based totally eliminates the mid-game mud action that everyone thrives on. I love how in recent times, with more detailed investigation using MMUDExplore, one can precisely design their build. For example, certain weapons become available at level 30 but not everyone is going to be Q&D at exactly level 30. It takes a certain race/class/agi/enc combo to aim to be max Q&D with that particular weapon - one may have to make sacrifices in things like health to achieve this. Other examples are things like a 'stealthy' warlock or a highly magic resistant mystic.

The system as it was originally intended makes it fun for players I would say in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. We all know that scripting is a 100% accepted fact of life now but people do still spend hours at the keys in the mid-range PVPing and boss-fighting. At some point there are 'too many' CPs, either because of stat limits or because stat-disadvantaged characters can 'catch up' and certain races become 'overpowered' just based on levels. Anything level 60+ is 'experimental.' If anything you would want to keep the CP system and cap it at say level 60. So no more CPs above 60. THEN your cookie-cutter system takes over...warriors get +4/+4, mystics +3 etc until whatever level you like. PVP rules would change so once you hit 61 the PVP "range" would be 61-200. That is not really well thought out but it would be better than cookie-cutter from level 1.

[Vile]

I like the idea, but the current combat system needs to change for it to work.

Mages don't benefit from increasing int as much as combat classes get for increasing str.

Stealth classes don't benefit from raising agil as much as tanks get for raising str.

In short, this change makes tanks even more OP.

[Torque]

...one may have to make sacrifices ...

some of these english rules are so stupid. Isn't that the gayest correct grammar you've ever heard?

Changing cps would bring some zing, and I agree that things like half-ogre mystic should be crippled. this is a way to do it. i also agree that control of your cps is very majormud-esque, so i would vote no for streamlining it. However, i heard a glimpse of formula that had to do with penalizing non primary stats, and I like that a lot. It should be expensive as all hell for a half-ogre to become decent with dodge, etc.


edit: "Isn't that the gayest correct grammar one's ever heard?"   fixed for gayness

[Gardner Denver]

I like the idea, but the current combat system needs to change for it to work.

Mages don't benefit from increasing int as much as combat classes get for increasing str.

Stealth classes don't benefit from raising agil as much as tanks get for raising str.

In short, this change makes tanks even more OP.

I just threw those out as examples but yes other things would have to change as well.  Take Crumbs over on non pvp.  Level 101 mage.  Hasn't seen his average round go up in something like 40 levels.  Now granted that's partially content due to caps and lack of content beyond baseline, but it also shows how the basic mechanics of the current engine could stand to be improved.

[Vile]

Oh and dislike any sort of auto assigned stats.

Race could play a role along with class in determining how costly a stat is to raise.

Half-Ogre Warrior can raise STR easier than a Dark-elf Warrior, but the delf has an easier time raising agil.

[Torque]

Half-Ogre Warrior can raise STR easier than a Dark-elf Warrior, but the delf has an easier time raising agil.

An easy way of what I was trying to say

[Zetetic]

I'm completely against enforced stat assignment. Whenever you take some of the choice about your character away, the personal involvement with that characters creation is lessened. Part of what has made MajorMUD so good and addictive is the opportunity to create the character the way you want to. The downside to this is that some race and class combinations are under or over powered. In my experience, this is due to a mixture of the current combat system, and characters that are designed to be good at one thing, but not another. It is possible to end up with broken builds. Anyone remember Wills druid from a few pushes ago? The dodge, MR and combat system at the time made it almost unkillable. These are isolated situations, and require us to look at the way the engine is designed, rather than the character builds.

I understand completely the idea behind this, and I'm glad that you are thinking about it. Games with user assigned character attributes are incredibly hard to balance. This is why almost none of the MMOs allow it, and why Diablo III doesn't allow it except through gear - gear that can be purchased with real money (yes that may sound cynical, but the conflict of interest inherent in that system seems obvious to me). Thinking about it and proposing a solution to a major problem that our game has for the long term is probably the most important thing that can happen on these forums for the future of this game. One thing I have noticed is that every time a discussion is started about fixing game mechanics, it dies off before there has been any movement from a discussion phase in to a decision phase.

I feel that the cost of removing player attachment is too high. I know that it would remove a great deal my interest in this game in the long term. I don't want my dwarf cleric to be exactly (or only 15% different) from every other dwarf cleric in the game. This will suddenly push all of the emphasis on to gear - and we have a game that limits the powerful items. I think that the PVP side of this game will likely feel much more strongly about this cost than the non-PVP, as I suspect that the involvement of the player with their character is greater for those of us that choose to risk our gear and our characters to the whims of other players. I may well be wrong. I propose that removing player choice about how their character grows is the wrong way to create a sense of balance in the game.

The second argument that I have for not removing it is that CP is fairly deeply entrenched in this game. If you remove it, or remove the part you have in it, it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game, why are we playing and restoring this game, instead of just creating an entirely new MUD with our own rules, systems and content?

I think that one thing that we should consider about Major/GreaterMUD is that it does not need to be perfectly balanced. Part of the wild nature of the game is that somebody can come up with a new build, design their character around it, and play their character in such a way as to exploit their strengths while avoiding it's weaknesses - this should be encouraged, not curtailed. The great balancer is in player skill and player choice. We should try to balance the game by putting a greater emphasis on the effects of player choice and personal skill. The character that you design is a major part of that player choice.

Since I started writing this post earlier in the day there have been some good ideas about changing some game mechanics, making classes have a primary and therefor easier to upgrade stat and similar. I like the ideas, though I feel that currently we already have all the penalties we need based on race for the different stats - especially now that we have increased the maximum stats. Base stats penalise people on how easy it is to get their stats high already, do we need bonuses for class as well? You might find yourself unbalancing classes with races quite a bit, and is that what we really want? Overall, these are really a part of a different discussion than what the original post lays out.

I'll try to find time either later on tonight or tomorrow, and I will start a new forum post where we can discuss changes to mechanics, and the pros and cons of those changes. I'll try to keep the first post updated with everyones ideas (it may take me a little while to compile them all so bear with me) as well as genuine arguments for and against those mechanics and their proposed effects upon the game. If we can get enough discussion of the varied ideas and we have some core ideas hammered out I'll put up a vote to see which ones people are the most in favour of. I hope that we can come to some genuine conclusions about what direction we the community want the game to take. Ideas are excellent. Decisions get things done.

[Stickyhaze]

The second argument that I have for not removing it is that CP is fairly deeply entrenched in this game. If you remove it, or remove the part you have in it, it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game, why are we playing and restoring this game, instead of just creating an entirely new MUD with our own rules, systems and content?

Since I started writing this post earlier in the day there have been some good ideas about changing some game mechanics, making classes have a primary and therefor easier to upgrade stat and similar. I like the ideas, though I feel that currently we already have all the penalties we need based on race for the different stats - especially now that we have increased the maximum stats. Base stats penalise people on how easy it is to get their stats high already, do we need bonuses for class as well? You might find yourself unbalancing classes with races quite a bit, and is that what we really want? Overall, these are really a part of a different discussion than what the original post lays out.

I was about to say something, but just as I hit reply, this post popped up. Those are two of the points I was going to make, so thanks for saving me the effort!

I enjoy making odd builds, or having my char really good at something at the expense of other things, instead of being a jack of all master of none. Any type of restriction of choice in the character creation process takes away some of the appeal that got us hooked on this game in the first place.


I thought of a small compromise. Something like the current system, with the same amount of cp's to distribute at the same increasing cost, along with class-based stat increases. Classes may have 2 primary stats, and the player gets to choose which stat is increased by 1 that level, and spend their cp's. That would give character creation a little of that zing, while not changing the classic MajorMUD feel too much. I don't know much about game mechanics or how this would affect things in the long run, but it seemed like a decent idea to build on.