You have been Nerfed!

[Stalkerr]

By now most of you are aware that we made an update this evening that resulted in changes in many player's combat performance.  This patch included::

Release Notes
Fixed a bug related to DR on monsters
Secondary defenses such as prev and party rank should now have some effect
Calculations for crit bonuses fine tuned
Spells Damage is no longer reduced by DR
Adjusted player ACC calculations to favor Agility as the primary stat

I'd like to gather some data on the changes we've seen and discuss why we made these changes.  Firstly, I'd like to collect data on new damage outputs for mystics so that we can correctly assess them and apply a more reasonable experience chart to the class.  So a copy of some mystics player statstics with information on their gear and stats along with where that info was collected from could go along way.  Secondly, many people were mentioning a dramatic change in their dodge rates which is a little confusing because we didn't change dodge at all, so if after some running time I could get some kinda confirmation on if that actually happened it would be great.

As for the changes to crits, I believe that everyone was aware that their was something off about them before but with the change to the cap that MMUD has and we dont it was hard to pin point.  While I was perusing the crit formula I noticed that mystics were gaining a large amount of extra crits that other characters were not as well as some other oddities within the code.  So we changed that to be more in-line with MMUD.  The result of that being that mystics dropped down to a less abnormal power level.

One of the major changes we made this patch  was a change from how MMUD handles player acc.  This change is mostly negligible at higher level play, but at lower levels maxing str will no longer be the absolute best was to produce damage.  Your agility stat now plays a much larger roll in acc, and int and charm do as well to a lesser extent.  This means that at lower levels agility races will produce more DPS and that the tanky str races will simply be tanky rather than also the highest damage dealers.

With the fix to DR on monsters, the longstanding DR effecting magic resist bug needed to be addressed and finally we just needed to make a small change to the secondary defense code to make it work properly.

I'll end this by opening the discussion on future nerfs for everyone to enjoy.  One really odd issue with low level play is the weird power spike that QND gives players when they hit certain thresholds as such I'd like to discuss a change to that system.  Over all I'd guess that this change might future nerf the DPS of players esp at certain thresholds where they would be able to abuse the QND mechanic.  The idea is to remove the current QND and instead use 6 max swings and give the player +1 crit for every 50 EU remaining after the 6th swing.  You would no longer get the huge +20 crits, but all your other crit% would be applied to a 6th swing so that on the high end you might see a slight reduction in AVG round but the scaling of damage would be more gradual and end up pretty similar in the end.  This nerf to the DPS on certain characters is kind of a secret buff to spellcasters.  All the auto attackers will be effected in the same fashion so even though you might be a little weaker, everyone(well, the auto attackers) else is going to be also.  That might help spellcasters be a little more competitive than they have been until this point.  The only other code change thats really on my radar atm is the addition of a new Thief ability which I call shadowhome.  With this ability thieves will be able to rest while hidden.  Its a pretty small buff for a very underpowered class, but I'm honestly short on creative ideas for them.

Also would people like to see the spell mod applied to the currently live realms?  If you haven't read the post basically the spell mod was made by demo and syntax and has been a somewhat common mod used by bbses over the past few years.   I went through and made new spells for monsters so that they will stay at the regular power level if we include this mod. 

I think this kinda covers everything, so any input or questions are welcome.

[father]

I don't have a cap from pre-release, but I was dodging 89% with this setup and my max hit was 91.  I suspect the dodge has gone down as a function of getting hit less with the +10 PREV from the Angel's Talon.

Miss:  2%
Hit:   42%   Rng:15-76    Avg:44
Extra: 0%    Rng:0-0      Avg:0
Crit:  56%   Rng:143-355  Avg:251
BS:    ---   Rng:0-0      Avg:0
Pre:   N/A   Rng:0-0      Avg:0
Cast:  N/A   Rng:0-0      Avg:0
Round:       Rng:17-991   Avg:608
Sneak: 0%   
Dodge: 73% 

Angel's talon                  (Weapon Hand)
dusty tricorne                 (Head)
enigma gloves                  (Hands)
gold jeweled ring              (Finger)
platinum ring                  (Finger)
enigma sandals                 (Feet)
sapphire bracers               (Arms)
peasant cloak                  (Back)
tiger-claw necklace            (Neck)
skirts of flame                (Legs)
lionskin belt                  (Waist)
silversilk tunic               (Torso)
diamond-encrusted bracelet     (Wrist)
sunstone wristband             (Wrist)
cobra earrings                 (Ears)
severed head of Irikani        (Worn)

Name: Dwarven Mystic                   Lives/CP:     9/10
Race: Halfling    Exp: 12655131701     Perception:     52
Class: Mystic     Level: 82            Stealth:       198
Hits:   934/1007  Armour Class:  37/-5 Thievery:        0
Kai:     77/81                         Traps:           0
                                       Picklocks:       0
Strength:  120    Agility: 180         Tracking:        0
Intellect: 40     Health:  140         Martial Arts:  192
Willpower: 40     Charm:   140         MagicRes:       55
The spirit of the viper inhabits your body!
You feel ferocious!
You feel evasive!
You feel strong, but clumsy!

[Greater]

Also would people like to see the spell mod applied to the currently live realms?  If you haven't read the post basically the spell mod was made by demo and syntax and has been a somewhat common mod used by bbses over the past few years.   I went through and made new spells for monsters so that they will stay at the regular power level if we include this mod. 

I think this kinda covers everything, so any input or questions are welcome.

I'd love to see spell mod added to the live realms, and sooner rather than later. This gives everyone time to adjust and feel out the new balance of things when the QnD changes go in. Then if any adjustments need to be made they can be determined in the time before the next resets.

I'd just like to say that I'm very excited about yesterday's patch and the stuff to come. The work is GREATLY appreciated!

[Vile]

Great stuff.

Not sure I like the proposed QND change. Are you saying the QND crit bonus will only affect the 6th swing?

[Stalkerr]

Great stuff.

Not sure I like the proposed QND change. Are you saying the QND crit bonus will only affect the 6th swing?

Noooo..sorry I meant that you'd have a 6th swing and it would obviously have a chance to crit like everything else.

[Zetetic]

I think that applying the spell mod now would be a good idea.

As to proposed changes, I can understand the Q&D change, but won't this eventually mean that characters deal even more damage at the higher levels? Their damage output should scale a bit better through the levels after the change, and hopefully the spell mod will keep pace with this.

I recommend making Mystics combat-2, as in combination with the above, they will not be able to use kick and jump kick till much higher levels, making kick an actual option for at least a portion of the game. Bring their exp back down to 250%. This should mean that Mystics see three definite power bands as they increase in power towards quick and deadly for each of their three attacks. We can then examine them again afterwards to see what effect it has had on their progression and performance. <As a side note, this idea was previously suggested by somebody else and had a great deal of popularity under a different thread>

I also recommend that we increase the HP of all classes by 5 per level.  This will make the HP advantage that high health races and in particular Half Ogres have less extreme, make PVP something that might be more enjoyable and more frequent as you are no longer risking your life and gear on the results of a single round of combat. It will also make many races actually usable. In conjunction with this, I think you would have to increase the HP of all bosses as well to make them more challenging. Multiplying bosses current HPs by x2 or x3 across the board would mean that we'll probably all have to wait a bit before challenging some of them - say until we can actually use the weapons and gear that they drop. I understand that scripting would be significantly easier with this larger pool of HP, but our damage will have decreased as well, so hopefully it doesn't imbalance PVE too much. It would also make previously non viable scripting areas a possibility.

The last thing I would recommend is to remove the strength requirement for all weapons. This is once again an attempt to make our current pool of races more viable. Keep in mind that strength is still a key component in being able to carry weapons and armour, so even though you could have a Halfling wielding a Stormmetal Greataxe at a lower level than anyone else while being quick and deadly, the inability to carry much if any armour at the same time means that you have an effective trade-off.

[Stalkerr]

As to proposed changes, I can understand the Q&D change, but won't this eventually mean that characters deal even more damage at the higher levels? Their damage output should scale a bit better through the levels after the change, and hopefully the spell mod will keep pace with this.

I suppose that at extreme levels the damage may be higher, but the scaling will be far more gradual.  You can see the stats syntax and demo put on spells in the deathcow's 3rd realm post.  We can always make further adjustments

I recommend making Mystics combat-2, as in combination with the above, they will not be able to use kick and jump kick till much higher levels, making kick an actual option for at least a portion of the game. Bring their exp back down to 250%. This should mean that Mystics see three definite power bands as they increase in power towards quick and deadly for each of their three attacks. We can then examine them again afterwards to see what effect it has had on their progression and performance. <As a side note, this idea was previously suggested by somebody else and had a great deal of popularity under a different thread>

I had thought about combat-2 on mystics before, but since the last patch mystics are reporting lower number and I'm going to assume less insane low level damage.  We'll make an adjustment to their exp chart and see how they play before making anymore dramatic adjustments to them.

I also recommend that we increase the HP of all classes by 5 per level.  This will make the HP advantage that high health races and in particular Half Ogres have less extreme, make PVP something that might be more enjoyable and more frequent as you are no longer risking your life and gear on the results of a single round of combat. It will also make many races actually usable. In conjunction with this, I think you would have to increase the HP of all bosses as well to make them more challenging. Multiplying bosses current HPs by x2 or x3 across the board would mean that we'll probably all have to wait a bit before challenging some of them - say until we can actually use the weapons and gear that they drop. I understand that scripting would be significantly easier with this larger pool of HP, but our damage will have decreased as well, so hopefully it doesn't imbalance PVE too much. It would also make previously non viable scripting areas a possibility.

I dunno that we can make any large adjustments to monster HP at this time, considering how untested the damage output is from lower level characters..bbut I see where you are going with that suggestion and perhaps some of the new content in the 3rd realm could have some more epic long lasting battles.  DPS has taken a considerable hit its possible some more hps would be doable but thats probably something to bring up after or instead of changing qnd and not something to to consider a the same time.  It would seem that an extra 100 hps every 20 levels could take some challenge out of certain areas though.

The last thing I would recommend is to remove the strength requirement for all weapons. This is once again an attempt to make our current pool of races more viable. Keep in mind that strength is still a key component in being able to carry weapons and armour, so even though you could have a Halfling wielding a Stormmetal Greataxe at a lower level than anyone else while being quick and deadly, the inability to carry much if any armour at the same time means that you have an effective trade-off.

I've seen this suggestion before and I've been hesitant to comment on it, because I've had these combat changes in mind for a long time now.  I feel that the changes we have and the ones I've suggested willl make 1 handed combat far more viable.  Keep in mind that the acc changes are a throwback to where those str requirements came from.

[Jester]

I recommend making Mystics combat-2, as in combination with the above, they will not be able to use kick and jump kick till much higher levels, making kick an actual option for at least a portion of the game. Bring their exp back down to 250%. This should mean that Mystics see three definite power bands as they increase in power towards quick and deadly for each of their three attacks. We can then examine them again afterwards to see what effect it has had on their progression and performance. <As a side note, this idea was previously suggested by somebody else and had a great deal of popularity under a different thread>

I think increasing the 'weapon speed' on jumpkicks is a more viable way of accomplishing this.  Combat rating is used in other formulas as well and I think using that as the control would have larger-than-intended effects on their combat prowess.  Mystics are a very combat-oriented class, combat 2 doesn't make sense.  As previously mentioned, this shouldn't be implemented until we see how things shake out with the current batch of changes.

Regarding high level combat eventually eclipsing current crit% that is an easy fix with level 70+ content with increased weapon speeds the damage output will be greater with new weapons and it won't be common to use an older weapon just for the crit bonus.  Also, Mag-6 (7,8,etc) is an option to flat out eliminate the use of lower tier weapons.

[Stalkerr]

I'd like to avoid combat-2 or chaning the speed on jumpkicks because I personally really like how in MMUD mystics start to shine around the time your gang will want to do DP and ARD..which would be delayed by either of these actions.  At the same time, I dont want them to trivialize all bosses that exist in the game, like they were just a few days ago.

[Crabster]

why is it that im a lower level bard and i crit 6 to 10% more than mystics higher than i? i crit more than the mystic posted in forums who is lev 82 or whatever with tons of nice gear....my gang has a few mystics and they are showing 45 to 50% crits when i show 56 to 60%....generally hovering 58%....mystic as a class already gets plus crits and me as a bard does not....and one mystic is in my party so he is getting the same party blesses....just how bad did yall nerf the 500% exp chart? just curious what really was changed....lets say u

[Zetetic]

You can see the stats syntax and demo put on spells in the deathcow's 3rd realm post.

I had a look through these, and the changes seemed good if a little over powered in some places. As far as I could tell they definitely scaled much better with level, but I was more asking for an opinion from someone that has played with the mod enabled as I never have.

We'll make an adjustment to their exp chart and see how they play before making anymore dramatic adjustments to them.

Very sensible.

I dunno that we can make any large adjustments to monster HP at this time, considering how untested the damage output is from lower level characters..bbut I see where you are going with that suggestion and perhaps some of the new content in the 3rd realm could have some more epic long lasting battles.  DPS has taken a considerable hit its possible some more hps would be doable but thats probably something to bring up after or instead of changing qnd and not something to to consider a the same time.  It would seem that an extra 100 hps every 20 levels could take some challenge out of certain areas though.

I agree that it is a little extreme, but I can't think of any way to improve the quality of play for PVE, PVP and boss fights without increasing HPs or completely rebuilding our combat engine and then monster database. The problem as I see it is that characters, monsters and bosses are all capable of ridiculous burst damage, and some race/class combos are completely unworkable because of this. When was the last time you actually saw a Gaunt Mage? They are not fun to play due to the tiny HP pool. From what I've read of the new combat formulas and the proposed sixth swing, burst damage should be reduced from combat class characters. Bosses and standard mobs are still a problem though. If we want lower HP races to be used, we need to improve the overall pool of HP. It is not fun for a Mage, Gypsy, Thief to be killed in just one or two rounds at a quest boss, simply because they were unlucky enough to be targeted by the boss and the random number generator rolled high a few times. This is one of the things that has made Half Ogres such a dominant force in MajorMud, instead of a specialised race for a specialised purpose. PVP is also something that should be lasting more than just one or two rounds. Once again, HP will improve this greatly. I've been considering the changes that you are proposing, and with them in, perhaps 5 HP per level is too high. Perhaps 3 per level would be more realistic to balance the current changes.

My suggestion for modifying boss HP applied just to bosses, not to standard mobs. I would like bosses to be harder, and I really feel that people shouldn't be taking on the Thrag or Ancient Ruins at such low levels. If we want to have some ebb and flow in the battle with bosses, the easiest way to do so is to have more character and boss HP.

And yes, some areas would definitely be easier with an increased HP pool. But with the decreased combat prowess, perhaps the term we are looking for is less randomly deadly. I do not equate challenge with a high chance of dying due to random rolls, I see it as how much work do you have to do yourself to get the job done.

I've seen this suggestion before and I've been hesitant to comment on it, because I've had these combat changes in mind for a long time now.  I feel that the changes we have and the ones I've suggested willl make 1 handed combat far more viable.  Keep in mind that the acc changes are a throwback to where those str requirements came from.

I guess we'll have to see. I still think that we won't see much race diversity until we remove the minimum strength requirements.

[Vile]

Crabster

Your crit % is going to be lower or higher depending on how accurate you are. First you have to hit, then you can crit. If you are in an area where you hardly ever miss (webbed lair) your crit % is always going to be higher than normal.

To boost your crit % overall you generally want to get as much +acc and +crit gear as possible while being max qnd and under 32% enc. You probably have more +acc/crit from gear/spells than the mystic too...

[Gardner Denver]

We'll make an adjustment to their exp chart and see how they play before making anymore dramatic adjustments to them.

Back when we raised mystics up to such a high exp chart my thinking was as we began to address some of the issues that make them so insanely OP in GMud that we could begin to drop the chart by either 50 or 100 at a whack until we eventually end up with them being more inline with damage, dodge, and exp %.

Since this update seems to have made a drastic impact on mystics I would support a 100 reduction so long as the patch remains applied.

[Greater]

Back when we raised mystics up to such a high exp chart my thinking was as we began to address some of the issues that make them so insanely OP in GMud that we could begin to drop the chart by either 50 or 100 at a whack until we eventually end up with them being more inline with damage, dodge, and exp %.

Since this update seems to have made a drastic impact on mystics I would support a 100 reduction so long as the patch remains applied.

It seems to me that returning them to normal exp wouldn't be a bad thing. A reduction of 100 still puts them way above where they should be with the combat change.

[Stalkerr]

Back when we raised mystics up to such a high exp chart my thinking was as we began to address some of the issues that make them so insanely OP in GMud that we could begin to drop the chart by either 50 or 100 at a whack until we eventually end up with them being more inline with damage, dodge, and exp %.

Since this update seems to have made a drastic impact on mystics I would support a 100 reduction so long as the patch remains applied.

It seems to me that returning them to normal exp wouldn't be a bad thing. A reduction of 100 still puts them way above where they should be with the combat change.

We already made them 250%, sorry I hadn't already made this clear to everyone.