Thoughts on recent changes

[Vitoc]

As you've likely noticed, we're playing with some formulas to try and balance some things out.  If, as a result of these changes, some result is absolutely awful and unjust, please don't up and quit the next day.  This is an ongoing process.  We're trying to make it fun for everyone and try to create some diversity among race, class, item, and level combinations.  It's a learning process.

We've come to the realization we're really the only place left in town.  There's no reason to sit and stagnate and not try to make the game better and bring it into the next generation.

DeathCow is and has been one of the power players in MajorMUD, rivaling even Locke's uncanny knowledge of the game.  Let's please give him a chance to try and sort things out before writing any change we make as a complete and total loss.  Worst case scenario, we can revert to the old formulas.  Best case scenario, we tweak and observe and retweak and observe and keep going.

The first rounds of changes will likely be the most drastic as they are the most needed to try to bring back some semblance of balance after years of upping the level limits with no new content or formula changes.  Hopefully things will kind of mellow out as we move forward.

[Greater]

I'm a huge fan of the new changes, and really happy that you're diving back into this.

Thanks a lot!

It feels so much more old school with the 6 swings and combat setup now.

[Stalkerr]

Next on the list is adjusting the average round for casters upward.  This will be done in 2 ways.  Firstly, by making our first large adjustment to the databases with a content update.  I'll be using the spellmod made by Syntax and Demo as a baseline for this but I'll be making several adjustments.  The biggest problem with this mod was that many monsters in the game saw drastic increases in their DPS as a result and to compensate I have simply made new copies of old spells for these monsters to use.  I'll include a downloadable explorer database so players can see the changes for themselves.  Secondly, a small adjustment to how the spellcasting stat works will allow players with higher spellcasting to deal more damage in certain cases. For players this will mean that SC over 100% will coverted to negative MR, up to a cap.  Because of this change caster-3 classes will tend to do more damage with their spells than the hybrid caster-2s.  As with the first spell related change, this will not effect how monsters deal spell damage.

I believe that the culmination of these and previous changes will result in a more balanced realm with more diverse choices in race and class.  Some specific information that is worth emphasizing: Normal combat prioritizes agility for ACC, while bash and smash prioritize strength for ACC.  Spells will see a small increase to their base damage as well as a small increase to their scaling, resulting in moderate increases at their level cap.  Spellcasters can prioritize spell damage by increasing their spellcasting stat.  All of these changes together make a significant change to character optimization and make many previously under powered items viable choices.

We may still need to make further changes to make combat-2 classes viable choices, my hope is that these changes will help.  When the dust settles from these changes the next step is combat initiative which I'm hopeful will be an amazing balancing tool followed by a proper 'tanking' mechanic that will hopefully not feel abusable or as though you are subject to the whims of the RNG.

As for some class specific goals:

Thieves, I want to make them able to rest while hidden and give him a high priority in combat
Witchunters, Obviously with spell damaging increasing witchunter might become an attractive class for the PVP realm.  Witchunters will probably already be enjoying the combat changes but I'd like some feedback on the class at various levels
Missionaries, this is probably a pretty decent class when played with the good alignment(now that prev works) If anyone is playing a neutral or evil missy, please chime in on what they need and whats currently working well for them.
Priests, good priests are extremely strong and probably dont need many of the improvements that they are going to get as such the whole class might see a bump in exp table.  The evil side here could maybe see some improvement, but again evil priests are pretty fun to play and strong.  NEUTRAL PRIESTS are terrible and I want to add a thing for them to do, I'm thinking spells that increase maximum hp coupled with some good only, evil only gear becoming NOT EVIL, NOT GOOD. and then some neutral only gear added.
Mystics, I know that mystics took a big hit in damage, but they were so broken before that people were actually playing them at a 500% chart(and being successful).  That was just fucked.  Mystics have been returned to their 250% chart(on pvp), and if we careful in our observations without exaggerating the extremes we can make changes to ensure they maintain the worth of a 250% chart without ever again being worth a 500% chart.   One thing that I'm excited about it that these recent patches make itemization for punch and kick a real possibility with some added content support

EDIT:

I think I've posted this before but this is an outline of the initiative system

Combat Initiative

All attack types will have a value from 1-100 assigned to them.  The Lower the initiative, the higher the priority.


1
10
15 Backstabs, Stealth Spells
20
21
30
31
40 Ambush
41
50
51
60
61
70 Attacks, Monsters
71 Spells
80 Bash
81
90 Smash, CombatCasting
91
100

*The stuff I have striked is there because it was included in the plans and I have the abilties planned for, but they obviously aren't really part of this current discussion as they aren't in the game yet and aren't currently on the schedule to go in.

Initiative is effected by the following modifers; New Ability; Initiative {Parameter} is subtracted from the total value.  A random modifer is applied each round ranging from -15, to 15.  Players get an (Agility-50)/10 Bonus and a (charm-50)% chance for a +3 bonus(A max charm Elf has a (120-50) or 70% chance at a +3 bonus.

If combat was engaged this round, IE combat was broke and reengaged, or this is the first round of combat a PC gets a -5 penalty.  This ability can be countered by the ability Quickdraw.  Quickdraw {Parameter} provides a bonus to initiative equal to the parameter and the first round penalty is ignored.

When Casting Spells players get a (-2+(Casting Level*2)) Bonus to Initiative

Players may set their Initiative in reverse in party, meaning that they will to go last in their party if possible.  The lowest total initiative player set in reverse will go last.

When monsters choose targets after initiative is rolled, and they pick their based on the last person scheduled to swing at them that round. Initially, however monsters will pick targets based on the order players entered the room, ignoring targets who used stealth to enter the room.

Lets say you could look at a monster and tell who their current taget is.  A party lead by a thief who was followed by a mage and a warrior enters a room with an orc.  The thief leads and enters the room first in stealth.  The mage enters second followed by the warrior.  If the thief looked at the orc he would see that the orc's current target is the mage, and if a combat round went off, the mage would be hit.  But in this case the party engages with the thief backstabing, the mage casting magic missle, and the warrior attacking with the setting to attack last enabled.  When combat initiative is rolled the orc picks the warrior as his target because the warrior is the last PC scheduled to hit him this round. 

I'd like to add to this a bit, I'm not sure on the mechanics but I'd like for the attack last command in megamud to have some effect if this party had entered a room with 3 orcs.  I'd like for it to have a significant chance to draw the monster aggro, that might be as simple as anytime someone with the greatermud setting attempt to attack last activates attacks current targets are reconsidered but I dont want this system to be 100% your single tank is going to take every attack, so I'll have to work on this situation some more. 

[Vile]

With Vitoc on board, instead of just raising spell damage across the board, how about making caster's stats affect damage just like STR does for combat. A gaunt mage immediately becomes much better than an ogre mage, which is the way it should be.

Also add +spell damage on items.

And spell crits! It would need to work differently to combat crits, but having spells crit would just be insanely awesome and change this game in a way never seen before.

When balancing caster damage, IMO, you should be aiming for them to have do much higher burst damage than ANY auto-attacking combat class. But it's only burst damage, it can't be sustained it for very long.

In an ideal scenario, a caster would have to expend close to it's entire mana pool to kill another player. With player hps so low this is going to be extremely difficult to achieve and keep PVE PVP balanced. But dishing out really really high amounts of damage very quickly is what these glass cannon casters should be all about.

[Thergin]

I like updates, and I like modifications...

but these were done with minor warning I think its disrespectful to those that have spent months on there character and you just pull the rug out on them, dont get me wrong I am very happy something is happening, and it is bringing people back out of the woodwork like myself.

I would be sad to see Majormud modified to the point where it is not even close to being Majormud, and a lot of external resources are not relevant.

I want to see tweaks and little things to smooth out the ruff edges, to fix formulas that are off or broken is great!
, but if you change too much I think people will lose interest. The reason people mostly play is because it is the same as it was 15 years ago, they know what they are getting and the knowledge they have built up is valuable.

[Vile]

I like updates, and I like modifications...

but these were done with minor warning I think its disrespectful to those that have spent months on there character and you just pull the rug out on them, dont get me wrong I am very happy something is happening, and it is bringing people back out of the woodwork like myself.

I would be sad to see Majormud modified to the point where it is not even close to being Majormud, and a lot of external resources are not relevant.

I want to see tweaks and little things to smooth out the ruff edges, to fix formulas that are off or broken is great!
, but if you change too much I think people will lose interest. The reason people mostly play is because it is the same as it was 15 years ago, they know what they are getting and the knowledge they have built up is valuable.

Can't disagree more. If you want to play MajorMUD there are lots of stock boards you can go get your nostalgia kick from.

The game is stale, outdated and badly in need of updating. The whole point of rewriting the engine was to be able to continue development. You probably don't remember new content because it's been so long, but new modules and exploration is probably the BEST thing about mud, and we've had none of it for a long long time.

[Thergin]

I do remember module 1.... I am happy for new modules to be added, and I am happy for minor changes to the current content, but if you redo the whole thing whats the point!

I currently play project 1999 everquest 1 with only the first expansion kunark, I dont play everquest 2. new is not always better.

Vile do you play on the current modded boards for majormud already?

[Stalkerr]

With Vitoc on board, instead of just raising spell damage across the board, how about making caster's stats affect damage just like STR does for combat. A gaunt mage immediately becomes much better than an ogre mage, which is the way it should be.

Also add +spell damage on items.

And spell crits! It would need to work differently to combat crits, but having spells crit would just be insanely awesome and change this game in a way never seen before.

When balancing caster damage, IMO, you should be aiming for them to have do much higher burst damage than ANY auto-attacking combat class. But it's only burst damage, it can't be sustained it for very long.

In an ideal scenario, a caster would have to expend close to it's entire mana pool to kill another player. With player hps so low this is going to be extremely difficult to achieve and keep PVE PVP balanced. But dishing out really really high amounts of damage very quickly is what these glass cannon casters should be all about.

Unfortunately, without a pretty major rework of pretty much everything this wouldn't be doable.   Although the changes we've made in the past few days might seem major to some people, they'd be nothing compared to the changes needed to pull something like this off. 

I kinda covered using spellcasting to increase the damage output from spellcasters, in essence extra spellcasting over the required for 100% will be converted into negative mr (up to a cap).  This method lets a gauntone mage out damage a hog mage, or a mage out damage a gypsy.  Items that simply increase spell damage aren't completely out the window but will likely only been seen as luxury items rather than the required itemization for casters. 

[Vile]

I kinda covered using spellcasting to increase the damage output from spellcasters, in essence extra spellcasting over the required for 100% will be converted into negative mr (up to a cap).  This method lets a gauntone mage out damage a hog mage, or a mage out damage a gypsy.  Items that simply increase spell damage aren't completely out the window but will likely only been seen as luxury items rather than the required itemization for casters.

Well this is a good start. In effect, items giving +sc will be giving +spell damage. Don't cap it out too low :) It won't help out healers and bless spells though?

[Stalkerr]

Well this is a good start. In effect, items giving +sc will be giving +spell damage. Don't cap it out too low :) It won't help out healers and bless spells though?

I'm capping it out at so that it won't reduce a targets MR below 50(base damage).  It won't have any effect on any ability other than Ability 17 (Damage -MR).  So it wont effect spells like turn undead, deathtouch, minor healing, or chant.  And for various reasons it will only effect spell you actually cast and not those that come from using items or on-hit effects from weapons.

So if a target had 50 mr, you won't do any extra damage.  If they had 40 you'd receive the normal bonus damage but without any boost from your high spellcasting stat.  If the target had 60 mr, you would deal bonus damage and in the case of 60 mr that would cap out at an increase of 5% or rather a mitigation of a 5% damage reduction.

EDIT One thing that this may allow for is a slightly more liberal use of MR as a bonus for low tier armours in the leather/silk categories.  When we see how it plays out thats an exciting consideration to make that can only help out the less tanky among us.  Also I'm not sure if I want the antimagic ability to make somone immune to this effect, that may be a bonus I include for witchunters at a later date.

[Vitoc]

I like updates, and I like modifications...

but these were done with minor warning I think its disrespectful to those that have spent months on there character and you just pull the rug out on them, dont get me wrong I am very happy something is happening, and it is bringing people back out of the woodwork like myself.

I would be sad to see Majormud modified to the point where it is not even close to being Majormud, and a lot of external resources are not relevant.

I want to see tweaks and little things to smooth out the ruff edges, to fix formulas that are off or broken is great!
, but if you change too much I think people will lose interest. The reason people mostly play is because it is the same as it was 15 years ago, they know what they are getting and the knowledge they have built up is valuable.

I do remember module 1.... I am happy for new modules to be added, and I am happy for minor changes to the current content, but if you redo the whole thing whats the point!

I currently play project 1999 everquest 1 with only the first expansion kunark, I dont play everquest 2. new is not always better.

Vile do you play on the current modded boards for majormud already?

Technically, the changes we made are actually moving it back towards the way it was before in MMUD history, and according to your EQ1 analogy, one would think you'd be all for moving things back towards the roots.  Agility should dictate accuracy more-so than strength.  Would you not agree?  There are already so many benefits to strength it became a "who's got the most strength?" competition.

We didn't redo the whole thing.  I'm sorry if I gave that impression.  We're filling in some of the missing formulas (where we did guesswork) that I didn't have prior to DC obtaining them.  We're also making an attempt to try and balance things out a bit.  That being said, stagnation is a major drag for most.  In the future we may start a branch and realm that is exactly faithful to MajorMUD, arguably to a fault, but to someone else's point, at that point why not just play in a real MajorMUD realm?

[Vitoc]

Regarding the lack of warning, I'm genuinely sorry those changes happened so quickly.  I had to go in to work early on Monday (6am) so I got off work earlier than normal and had a small window to get some stuff done.

[Stalkerr]

Regarding the lack of warning, I'm genuinely sorry those changes happened so quickly.  I had to go in to work early on Monday (6am) so I got off work earlier than normal and had a small window to get some stuff done.

Its kinda unfair to say that there was a lack of warning.  At least some aspects of these changes I've been discussing on these forums for 5+ years.  The first round came after people asked when they could see new content, and I said "Alright, this is what I'd like to do for content, before that lets see what coding we can get done."  and then I discussed these changes in full over a couple day period in the gossip of both realms.  And multiple times over the course of the 2 days.  While I'm sorry that you didn't somehow missed the conversations, I made an attempt.

I really am a mud lover at heart and I can assure you that the changes were made with the best intentions.  I honestly couldn't find a reasonable way to tackle some of the biggest balance issues without making these changes.  I can't promise 100% perfect balance, but I can promise that I was really careful, and methodical, when planning these balance changes and I hope that people can appreciate how they flow through out the game starting at level 1, up until the late game.  Really these changes should make for a more diverse and competitive realm with more viable gear options and race builds for everyone.  Unless I totally missed the ballpark I think will.

[Crabster]

try bashing....and keep an open mind... 8)

[Stalkerr]

try bashing....and keep an open mind... 8)

Yeah, I think I might have made a grievous error with bash.  It definitely needs some work.