Dem CPS

[Stalkerr]

Ok, I need ideas for purchasable<wtf..that can't be how that's spelled> skills.  I need to fill a cp gap roughly equal to the cps gained from level 55 to level 70.  -_-

I've got

Swimming
Climbing
Hardiness(safe from heat and cold, this like immune to cold water/magma heat)
Follow Through(increase minimum damage)

Familars?  I dunno

Weapon Proficiency 1HS, 1HB, 2HB, 2HS  Probably would translate into acc increases with weapons of the given type.

Uh Natural Enemy?  Dragons, Undead, crackbabies->probably just extra dmg vs these types.

So yeah...thats gotta be 750 cps worth of stuff...YAY.  Ok yeah..need ideas.   

PS: I really hate that this is coming from needing to spend cps rather than some other need.  It makes for rather poor design.  Part of me just wants to slow down the scaling on CPs so you gain them slower :(

[Vitoc]

DooDoo-b-Gone?

[Crabster]

DooDoo-b-Gone?

i like doodoo in da poopoo straight gangsta style in da mug cuz... O0

[Greater]

I envision two essential classifications for these purchasable abilities: Major and Minor. Majors should cost enough that players could only afford to purchase one, and then have enough "spare change" to purchase 1 or 2 minors.

Alter Helpful Spell Damage - Major - 5% increase to min and max of direct healing spells (Direct meaning spells like Greater Healing or Way of the Swan. Spells like rgen or prbe would be unaffected)

Alter Harmful Spell Damage - Major - 5% increase to min and max damage of direct attack spells.

Alter Helpful Spell Duration - Major - 10% increase in duration of helpful spells (For example, Druid's Regeneration spell would gain 1 extra tick from this, or Mage's Speed would gain 2 extra rounds.)

Alter Harmful Spell Duration - Major - 10% increase in duration of harmful spells (Priest's Damnation would last an extra round, while spells like Hold Person wouldn't be lengthened. This is more designed for damage over time spells and debuffs rather than holds/confuses.)

One with the Night - Major - Grants 9999 IlluTarget, effectively immunizing you from illu reduction portions of spells (True blinds would be unaffected, and spells like Wcur would still fully affect you except that the illu reduction would do nothing.)

Shadowcaster - Major - +25 Mana Regen while sneaking or hidden

Berserker - Major - +3 accuracy, +3 crits, +3 max damage, -3 ac, -3 dr, - 3 dodge while wielding two-handed weapons

Ardent Defender - Major - +3 AC, +3DR, -3 Max Damage, -3 Crit while wearing an offhand

Field Medic - Minor - +15 HP Regen

Ether Attunement - Minor - +10 Mana Regen

Fitness - Minor - +50 Maximum HP

Lucidity - Minor - +50 Maximum Mana


More to come

[Stalkerr]

One with the Night - Major - Grants 9999 IlluTarget, effectively immunizing you from illu reduction portions of spells (True blinds would be unaffected, and spells like Wcur would still fully affect you except that the illu reduction would do nothing.)

Thanks for the suhhestions, they're useful.  This particular one cracked my shit up.  I don't really wanna go into it on the forum, but some of you might know why..heh.

[Greater]

Do you still get blinded here by over 1000 illu? Maybe I missed something  :-\

[Stalkerr]

Do you still get blinded here by over 1000 illu? Maybe I missed something  :-\

hehe.

[Vile]

These are convenient things to have. Passive abilities don't get me excited though. How about really powerful abilities that are on a cooldown? Player interaction stuff rather than just mega bots.

Movement - drastically increase movement speed for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

Stealthy - Immune see hidden, auto hide/sneak and can't be searched out for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

Combat - Auto attack 2 targets at once for one round, 5 min cooldown.

1-Hander Combat - Cast damage spell and weapon auto attack at the same target in the one round, cooldown 5 min.

Casters - Cast 2 or more spells inbetween rounds for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

[Greater]

These are convenient things to have. Passive abilities don't get me excited though. How about really powerful abilities that are on a cooldown? Player interaction stuff rather than just mega bots.

Movement - drastically increase movement speed for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

Stealthy - Immune see hidden, auto hide/sneak and can't be searched out for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

Combat - Auto attack 2 targets at once for one round, 5 min cooldown.

1-Hander Combat - Cast damage spell and weapon auto attack at the same target in the one round, cooldown 5 min.

Casters - Cast 2 or more spells inbetween rounds for 15 secs, 5 min cooldown.

I considered the approach you used here, but I just wasn't sure about exactly how much new code would be needed to add new stuff like cooldowns. I tried to balance new concepts with how much time I thought they may take to implement. One thing that has to be kept in mind though is that these things are supposed to take the place of stats which benefit you 100% of the time. It's hard to imagine things with 5 minute cooldowns as being equal to having stats instead. The approach that I used gives a similar bonus to stats in most cases, except it has a definitive cap on what how much it's actually benefiting you. I liked the concept of a Priest choosing to be a great healer, caster, or debuffer, or a plate character choosing to lose defenses for extra two-handed prowess. It's more like specializing your character which, to me, seems like it gives some nice replay value in the long run.

I like these ideas, though casting and attacking in the same round just seems like a cheap way to round someone that doesn't require much personal skill.

[Zetetic]

I like the idea of some of these abilities (never having to carry a rope and grapple ever again - priceless), but do we really want to be modifying combat and spell damage in such a way? Why implement a system that increases the damage of spells or combat by a percentage when we already have a system in place that does exactly that - character stats. It seems like a great deal of extra effort to create something that we already have.

Instead of having those abilities bought for CP, why not make quests to obtain the less damage oriented passive abilities (possibly class and level restricted?) and then make it so that as a part of finishing the fifth quest (or sixth if you have a mind to) you unlock the ability to increase your stats above the normal maximums up to the current +40 cap?

You would probably need to make it that if you retrain your stats, you have to assign all of the first 50 levels CP with the normal maximum, and can then assign all of the later CP with the higher maximum.

This would make race/class combos start to behave very similarly as they approach 50-55, and then suddenly you have greater control over your characters diversity once you do the quest.

I understand that this does make higher level characters ridiculously powerful, but I feel that it would breath new life in to characters beyond that point while introducing options for people (imagine making a Halfling warrior and suffering through the first 50 levels in an attempt to have powerful combat at level 50?).

Another argument that I would make for this system is that it feels as though you are working towards something concrete that still allows you to build your character differently to how other people have built theirs.

[Greater]

Another argument that I would make for this system is that it feels as though you are working towards something concrete that still allows you to build your character differently to how other people have built theirs.

This is actually the exact opposite of what you do with stats. In the end, everyone's character of the same class is pretty much exactly the same. The "builds" in this game are gear based, since everyone raises the same stats on the same classes.

I like the idea of some of these abilities (never having to carry a rope and grapple ever again - priceless), but do we really want to be modifying combat and spell damage in such a way? Why implement a system that increases the damage of spells or combat by a percentage when we already have a system in place that does exactly that - character stats. It seems like a great deal of extra effort to create something that we already have.

Because what we have is broken. The whole reason behind this discussion was the realization that the +40 to max of all stats is a problem here. It's really tough to accurately balance combat when stats are so overly inflated, so the next obvious step in the discussion was: When the extra stats are gone, what do we do with all the extra cps? How can characters still advance without giving them ridiculous amounts of extra stats that end up creating imbalances?

I don't see stuff like Swimming as being an adequate replacement for hard stats. There are only a few places in the game where it'd even be useful, and in one case-Crystal Lake-it might even mess with your ability to get on the Galleon. The ideas I came up with that are tagged "Major" are intended to be replacements for stats that people will actually want, instead of trading damage for not having to carry a skiff in 2 spots in the game. They have a reasonably capped bonus, but are still desirable enough that people will want to use them.

If priced right, they would also provide an additional degree of character specialization that simply doesn't exist in the game right now. If you could purchase only one of the Major abilities, then it would add another layer of replay value to the game by making you choose one major path that you can't turn back from.


TLDR: Extra stats are screwing up combat, so the ideas that I posted are intended to be replacements for bonus stats where you specialize in one Major ability, and then grab a small handful of the lesser/minor ones. This both replaces stats and adds a layer of replay value to the game.

[Stalkerr]

I like the idea of some of these abilities (never having to carry a rope and grapple ever again - priceless), but do we really want to be modifying combat and spell damage in such a way? Why implement a system that increases the damage of spells or combat by a percentage when we already have a system in place that does exactly that - character stats. It seems like a great deal of extra effort to create something that we already have.

Instead of having those abilities bought for CP, why not make quests to obtain the less damage oriented passive abilities (possibly class and level restricted?) and then make it so that as a part of finishing the fifth quest (or sixth if you have a mind to) you unlock the ability to increase your stats above the normal maximums up to the current +40 cap?

You would probably need to make it that if you retrain your stats, you have to assign all of the first 50 levels CP with the normal maximum, and can then assign all of the later CP with the higher maximum.

This would make race/class combos start to behave very similarly as they approach 50-55, and then suddenly you have greater control over your characters diversity once you do the quest.

I understand that this does make higher level characters ridiculously powerful, but I feel that it would breath new life in to characters beyond that point while introducing options for people (imagine making a Halfling warrior and suffering through the first 50 levels in an attempt to have powerful combat at level 50?).

Another argument that I would make for this system is that it feels as though you are working towards something concrete that still allows you to build your character differently to how other people have built theirs.

Unfortunately not all stats were created equal and as characters scale into late game certain stats meet a threshold and no longer scale as well as others.  An example of this would be stats that weigh heavily of secondary skill scores.  There is a maximum value to these secondary skills where futher raising them either literally does nothing or basically does nothing. This shows up in other areas like magic resistance, accuracy, swings per turn.  The very few aspects of the game designed specifically to ensure balance are thwarted by increase maximum stats beyond the original design.  The what to do with extra cps question has been a plague for a long time, and while I don't personally feel that anything needs to be done with them I can understand that having them sitting idle doesn't feel good to some people, and I'm willing to try to find something in the middle that accommodates everyone.  Specific skills with easily understood stats that are laid out in front of you are much easier to maintain balance with than the already misguided flat increase to each stat.  Honestly even if increasing the maximum value of stats was something to consider, the increase should be a percentage of the current maximum, and not a flat increase for each stat.

The many of the abilities that you'll be able to spend your cps on will be nothing more than luxury skills.  The new combat design is an attempt to balance damage output with defensive skill, and to maintain the balance through out the game.  There are more tweaks needed still, and I've yet to get the abundance of information I have for late game characters accumulated for early game characters, but I am working on that.  I know that people don't like that they are doing less damage but if we didn't make an effort to reign in the extremes then we'd never get a realm with diverse character pools. 

Once we have the damage spectrum a little more in tune we can start addressing the even more touchy area of defenses.  This area is really messed up, with plate wearers being practically immortal while leather wearers are basically without defenses.  Long ago, even the highest ac in the game barely felt like it did anything.  I recall having a monsterous hog warrior that maxed out his armour in the 65ac area.  Mind you at this time the combat formulas we such that accuracy totals were divided by 10, instead of the 14 that they are now.  Meaning that the plate wears not only had less total AC but ACC was more effective.  Anyway, beyond all that Gmud still does not adhere to some of the mins and maxes that are seen in MMUD and as such perfect defenses are attainable.  I intend to add in the defensive caps fairly soon and then make a few small changes to defenses in each future patch(while we work on combat damage).

Ultimately, the changes I'm working on will take some effort and patience.  And I'm glad that you brought up the esteemed halfling warrior.  This race class combo is currently, pretty fucking bad..if you want to actually be a warrior.  However, this race/class combat long with thieves in general is my dream situation.  If this was playable and had a role it could fulfill I would feel like I've done my job.  My most recent playthrough of Baldur's gate 2 had a Mazzy Fenton murder wagon roll through and shit on even the most powerful godhood-aspiring villains.  So I can tell you, that it really is on my mind to ensure that these sort of off-centered choices really should be playable.  They might require a plan and a minimum knowledge base to pull off, but skilled players should be able to pull it off and be competitive. 

Tomorrow is the day I intend to sit down and hammer out the spell modifications.  I am hoping that the results of that are pleasing to everyone.  Except mystics.  And Clerics.  Fuck mystics and clerics.