[Melee] Ranged Combat-Locke's

[DeathCow]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ranged Combat

First, I want to get something out of the way-- any fears people have of abuse would of course be addressed, so don't let the idea that this might be too powerful (even though you agree with the concept) dissuade you from this idea.  But having said that, I like to think that most of the concepts I'm about to present are pretty straight forward and would be logical.

Ranged Combat Would Be An Ability
This would be much like how Jumpkicking, Punching and so forth are given out via abilities.  Not everyone would have the ability (at least not immediately, perhaps Warriors and Paladins could acquire it later at a diminished capability from pure Archers, but the point is, this would be mostly unique to Archers from level 1).   

Range Would Be Limited To One Room
You would only be able to shoot at targets in the next room, and certain exits would not be possible to shoot through (specifically any such as map change exits (where a monster would be unable to follow) or any other exit type that would not lend itself well to being shot through.  With that said, you WOULD be able to shoot through some exits such as closed gates (or open gates), afterall, if you can see through the gate, why can't you shoot through it?  =)   

Ranged Combat Would Follow Traditional Round Timing
Rounds would occur at the same intervals as regular combat, meaning an Archer (or someone with this ability to perform ranged combat) would engage combat and see the traditional "*Combat Engaged*".  They would then, depending on when they initiated combat, need to wait for a round to go off before doing any damage.  (The attack would not be instant, thus, it would not (easily) allow hit and run tactics in PVP or during boss fights.  If you engaged in ranged melee in the same room, your foe would receive the traditional "Joe moves to attack you!", but if you were hidden or shooting at them from another room, they would not.

Ranged Combat Breaks Sneak And Hide
Engaging in ranged combat, either in the same room or from one room away would instantly make you visible before the round goes off (allowing people who are PVP'ing you a small opportunity to look in a direction and see that you're hunting them).  In the same room, I imagine this is less of an issue, but from a distance it seems like it'd be logical to assume that the Archer is having to expose themselves more to get a good shot.


Ranged Combat Would Indicate The Direction The Attack Came From To The Victim
Something along the lines of "A volley of arrows from %s hits you for %d damage!" (this would be customizable for each weapon, and is only an example).  %s would be replaced with "the east", "above", etc.  %d would be the damage dealt.  For combat in the same room, you would also see who was shooting you.

Ranged Combat Would Consist Of A Single Shot, Not Multiple Shots
In this way, it's similar to a backstab.  The damage would be similar to a backstab, the advantage here is that you can get these hits at a distance, possibly without risk of retaliation (for at least your first shot, subsequent shots would have lost their surprise because your foe would now be aware of your attack).  Another possibility here might be to allow for multiple shots, but at a MUCH slower rate than regular combat (after all, it takes longer to setup and shoot an arrow than it does to swing a sword).  I'm imagining that shots would be limited to 3 per round at most.  The damage would need to be calculated differently if the multiple shot approach was chosen, of course.  =)

Only Specific Weapons Would Be Usable In Ranged Combat
Bows and arrows almost exclusively.  I don't imagine a fine throwing knife would be usable from this kind of distance, so it wouldn't count, but long range weapons would of course be usable.  Swords and such would not.   

Ranged Combat Would Lure Monsters
You would not be able to kill bosses solo from a distance-- monsters would recognize the attack and (depending on how it's coded) either immediately chase after you the moment you engage, or immediately after the round goes off.  The damge dealt would again be similar to a backstab, so there's not a whole lot of chance for this to be abused (I've yet to see a recent cap of someone backstabbing the adult red dragon to death, for example).  For stationary bosses, two things would occur-- they would be made non-stationary so they can roam, or the exits leading into their lair would make it impossible to engage in ranged combat on them (obstructions would block your shot, for example).   

Ranged Kills Would Yield Experience But Not Quest Flags
You would get the traditional messages when you kill a monster, as well as the experience, but any items that drop would drop in the room the monster was in when it died, not necessarily your room.  Spells cast by the monster on death would not be cast on you (so you wouldn't get quest flags, or be teleported if that's what the spell cast on death did).  Depending on the coding situation, this might also mean that "secondary bosses" would not be summoned properly.  I think this aspect might need discussion and/or investigation.

Ranged Combat Would Impose A Penalty To Dodge
Because of the necessity to steady your shot when shooting at a distance, your Dodge would incur a slight penalty while you were engaged in ranged combat.  Your accuracy would also suffer slightly.  If you engaged in ranged combat in the same room as your foe, you would still receive the penalty to Dodge but a slight boost to accuracy (to acknowledge the close range you're shooting from).

Ranged Combat Would Respect Existing Combat Rules
You would not be able to shoot into or out of a safe room.  You would not be able to shoot good targets if you were max FIEND.  You would not be able to shoot into or out of an arena (but you would be able to shoot within a multi-room arena, just not out of it at spectators).

Moving While Engaged In Ranged Combat Would Break Combat
Shooting requires that you remain stationary-- the moment you tried to move your combat would break (*Combat Off*), and you would have to deal with whatever movement delays you would normally have to deal with (the 1-2 seconds required to move room to room while at normal encumbrance, for example).  Again, combat would break the instant you pressed enter; it would not wait for your actual movement to complete.  So from that point until you've arrived in the next room, you would be vulnerable to attack and not actively retaliating (beyond any shockshield type armour of course).

I think that about covers it..  If anyone has any concerns or additional notes that might help to better clarify ranged combat, please feel free to reply and I'll update this post as necessary.  And obviously, any discussion is also welcome so fears or ideas can be addressed.   

[scratacorn]

can archers get tracking........=)

[DeathCow]

Depends on how I design them.

[The Crazy Animal]

Just out of curiosity:

What type of command would we be looking at would it be some thing like: ra (direction) (target)?

----------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure If I agree with some of this..

It seems to me that you have two modes of combat and are trying to use the same rules that will never work very well.

Combat from a room away should give the shooter ample time to set up for retaliation. Even combat in the same room no archer would let himself get toe to toe with the enemy that's just not something a ranged weapon is meant for. The dodge penalty that you talk about just doesn't make sense if you use a ranged weapon correctly. When the shooter is at a distance you should have a bonus against the target but not against any secondary attackers that may intervene. The reason for this is the eye of the shooter is on the target, the shooter should be able to spot from the movements of the target where the target is going in order to hit it. Knowing this that shooter should have a advantage on an approaching target. However since the shooter is focused on the target the shooter should then be at a disadvantage to anyone else that might attack. If you can't code for both of these situations I would leave any dodge changes out.

Shooting while hidden/sneaking should give a accuracy penalty but shouldn't auto break the hide/sneak. Instead test against the targets perception or some other stat and perhaps test the shooters stealth after each shot too. The difficulty of spotting a hidden archer should also take into account if he is a room a way. At high levels staying hidden and hitting your target; without being spotted after the shoot should be possible.

Moving while shooting should also be possible but should give an accuracy penalty or other wise raise the difficulty of the shot. Think about it people can shoot an arrow accurately from a moving chariot or horse (not a steady platform). The only time the shooter need to be steady is at the release of the arrow (a second at most). The readying of the arrow and drawing of the arrow can all be done while moving with no effect of the actual shot.

Lastly, if your thinking about this what about ranged spell combat?

[KalEl]

I'm not sure If I agree with some of this..

It seems to me that you have two modes of combat and are trying to use the same rules that will never work very well.

Combat from a room away should give the shooter ample time to set up for retaliation. Even combat in the same room no archer would let himself get toe to toe with the enemy that's just not something a ranged weapon is meant for. The dodge penalty that you talk about just doesn't make sense if you use a ranged weapon correctly. When the shooter is at a distance you should have a bonus against the target but not against any secondary attackers that may intervene. The reason for this is the eye of the shooter is on the target, the shooter should be able to spot from the movements of the target where the target is going in order to hit it. Knowing this that shooter should have a advantage on an approaching target. However since the shooter is focused on the target the shooter should then be at a disadvantage to anyone else that might attack. If you can't code for both of these situations I would leave any dodge changes out.

Shooting while hidden/sneaking should give a accuracy penalty but shouldn't auto break the hide/sneak. Instead test against the targets perception or some other stat and perhaps test the shooters stealth after each shot too. The difficulty of spotting a hidden archer should also take into account if he is a room a way. At high levels staying hidden and hitting your target; without being spotted after the shoot should be possible.

Moving while shooting should also be possible but should give an accuracy penalty or other wise raise the difficulty of the shot. Think about it people can shoot an arrow accurately from a moving chariot or horse (not a steady platform). The only time the shooter need to be steady is at the release of the arrow (a second at most). The readying of the arrow and drawing of the arrow can all be done while moving with no effect of the actual shot.

All the stuff listed here makes sense.? Only problem is if we make it too much like real life then we gotta make every character more realistic. i.e. warrior can chop your head off and kill you in one blow.? I think he set it up this way for balance.? But either way kudos to you guys for making a game where bows were actually worth something.? I was so dissappoint in mmud when i first found out how useless any ranged weapon was.? Can I have a specially made bow that shoots firearms.? :oP


Kal

[ghaleon]

can archers get tracking........=)

I personally never saw a tracking archer.  ... tracking archers are called 'rangers'

[Locke Cole]

Just out of curiosity:

What type of command would we be looking at would it be some thing like: ra (direction) (target)?

I was originally advocating this:

shoot <target> <direction>

Though I can see the target/direction being swapped, it does kind of make sense that way, heh. Presumably you would be able to shorten this down to just "sh" (can't use "s" sadly since that collides with "south"; though maybe we could if parameter parsing were intelligent; e.g. "s" by itself is "south", but "s" with parameters is taken to be a shortcut for "shoot").

I'm not sure If I agree with some of this..

Most of the stuff you disagreed with was purely to keep the game balanced and/or fun. As mentioned, if we go for ultra realism we sacrifice fun/balance.

Lastly, if your thinking about this what about ranged spell combat?

I don't have a problem with it, but it's not as necessary as ranged combat is for an Archer-type class. Spellcasters are still pretty fun/cool with or without ranged spells. On the other hand, an Archer class would be pretty shitty if it could only shoot people in the same room as it is. =)

Keep in mind I wrote this proposal over two years ago in the MudCentral forums.

[scratacorn]

can archers get tracking........=)

I personally never saw a tracking archer.  ... tracking archers are called 'rangers'

well then, can Rangers get archery skills..................

[Locke Cole]

well then, can Rangers get archery skills..................

Probably some weakened version of it. In the MudCentral discussion I mentioned perhaps most (all?) combat types getting it, but some with more proficiency with it than others.

[The Crazy Animal]

I was originally advocating this:

shoot <target> <direction>

Though I can see the target/direction being swapped, it does kind of make sense that way, heh. Presumably you would be able to shorten this down to just "sh" (can't use "s" sadly since that collides with "south"; though maybe we could if parameter parsing were intelligent; e.g. "s" by itself is "south", but "s" with parameters is taken to be a shortcut for "shoot").

I would say go with ranged as the command since you could then get the short of ra or r.

Most of the stuff you disagreed with was purely to keep the game balanced and/or fun. As mentioned, if we go for ultra realism we sacrifice fun/balance.

I'm just looking at this from a stand point of consistancy and limitations:

Does it make sence that an trained archer can't move when shooting but an untrained warrior with a bow can run around while shooting with the normal attack command. If you have two modes of combat for a single weapon they need to have a constant flow. If it were me designing it I would remove the ranged weapon's ability to use the normal attack command and BS command and turn this idea into one that is constant for all ranged attacks. This way you don't have mutliple rule sets for attacking with a ranged weapon.

From a semi-realism standpoint sniping a shoot its very different to the bs attack because the player doesn't move very much to pull off an attack this is why I bring up this point. I can see maybe having the attack break stealth but not a hide. I'm still wondering if the idea was to have repeated rounds or just single shot then break though. In the case of repeated rounds I would have it break a hide or sneak.

At any rate we have stats we can use to test against a hiden character I would advocate using them to with this to make it both semi-realistic and fair at the same time. A troll with low intel and percep should be at a loss when trying to spot a hidden archer but a elf with high intel and percep shouldn't have much of a problem.

(speaking about ranged spells) I don't have a problem with it, but it's not as necessary as ranged combat is for an Archer-type class. Spellcasters are still pretty fun/cool with or without ranged spells. On the other hand, an Archer class would be pretty shitty if it could only shoot people in the same room as it is. =)?

Again thinking about consistancy: If I can shoot a arrow into anouther room why not a lightning bolt.

[DeathCow]

For the most part I see ranged combat as an analog to backstabs.  Where backstabs will have a huge amount of damage, they will leave you in the room with the enemy.  Ranged attacks are similar, as in giving initiative, but are weaker and provide more protection from counter.  That being said there is no reason some spell couldnt be flaged as useable while hidden, or useable from distance.  Of course any ability that gives a player a new skill set has to be carefully looked over, bug checked, and then tested again. 

All that being said, this is a fantasy rpg.  And as such, my cares about realism are limited at best.

[The Crazy Animal]

For the most part I see ranged combat as an analog to backstabs.? Where backstabs will have a huge amount of damage, they will leave you in the room with the enemy.? Ranged attacks are similar, as in giving initiative, but are weaker and provide more protection from counter.? That being said there is no reason some spell couldnt be flaged as useable while hidden, or useable from distance.? Of course any ability that gives a player a new skill set has to be carefully looked over, bug checked, and then tested again.?

All that being said, this is a fantasy rpg.? And as such, my cares about realism are limited at best.

I'm not as worried about realism as I am game play consistancy. You can look at ranged combat as a analog to BS and Normal combat but it really isn't since it has diferent rule sets being so you should treat it as a secondary combat mode all together.

After thinking about it some more I would suggest using the commands SS (surprise shoot) for the BS type attack and have that transfer into a regular attack RA (ranged attack) and let both attacks use the directional subcommand.

Since there is a need to be fair in the two combat systems Ranged attacks should be able to keep attacking when moving however what I would do to keep it fair is have a ranged attack loose one round after a movment and maybe have an accuracy penalty on the next shot that would cover any situation of needing to re-aim a shot.

For the dodge issue maybe you can keep an Archery pre-calculated skill something like MA or Stealth. What you could do then is set aside a portion of dodge that could be lost or gained via leveling and stat manipulation. This would allow an Archer to show how well (s)he is skilled in keeping an opponet further away. Secondly with a stat like this you could also link it to shot speed or other effects.

As for staying hidden i'll just let that one go, since bs or a regular attack breaks it any range attack should too I guess. Just kinda ruins the feel of sniping someone.

Definatly look at Surprise castings though I think that would be a great way of revamping Fighter/Caster combos and give sneaking casters something to play with as well.

[proteus]

On the flip side of the coin, implementing something like this will lead to people like me asking about monsters with ranged attacks, simply because people like me like to cause headaches sometimes. Plus, wouldn't it just be outright fun if a dragon's (or other monsters) breath attack weren't limited solely to the room it was in?

Then there's stuff like Magic Missile, which would/could simulate a ranged attack. Probably some other spells, too.

[DeathCow]

I'd consider making some monsters have ranged attacks...depends though.  I don't wanna be like metro and have one idea and run with it on every monster.

[proteus]

Well, not every monster, but appropriate ones. Dark Goblin Archer? Sure. Acid Slime? No.