SpellMod

[Stalkerr]

Now that we've been running the spell mod for a bit I'd like to some input on what changes players would make to what we have setup.  The spell SLEEP doesn't need to be discussed here, I think everyone is aware of that situation.

Anywho anything you have to say about how the spellmod is working out would be nice to have here, in one spot that can be referenced.

[Greater]

Now that we've been running the spell mod for a bit I'd like to some input on what changes players would make to what we have setup.  The spell SLEEP doesn't need to be discussed here, I think everyone is aware of that situation.

Anywho anything you have to say about how the spellmod is working out would be nice to have here, in one spot that can be referenced.

Priests: Improvements to utility spells like bevi or halo are really nice. The improved scaling on healing spells is subtle, but well done. Attack spells from Soulstrike and up might be a little too strong, while the "vs undead" spells lack in usefulness due to poor design of their mana cost and damage comparatively to normal attack spells (ie  with Exorcism, you spend 12-15% more mana than Soul Rip to do 5% more damage vs undead only). Increased stat maxes also make priests slightly stronger than they should be vs other magic users.
             
Mages:  Room spells do way too much damage. Mage room spells were already the best in the game by a lot, so having them do as much as 1200 dmg before MR is a bit out of control. There is also some weird scaling on certain spells. For example, Eldritch Fury does more damage than Magma Blast on Spellmod, even though Magma Blast generally is much more difficult to acquire.

Druids:  Overall, Druids do pretty well in Spellmod. The improvement to rgen makes it even better than it was before. While Druid room damage is nice, it's also not comparable to Mage room damage, as Atem suffers from being able to be directly resisted.


The damage increase to spells that vampires cast makes them a fair amount harder to deal with when 5th questing close to level 50. It's was always a harrowing experience taking a group through close to level 50, but it's significantly harder with the vamps having improved spell damage.

Goru-Nezar's improved spell damage imbalances access to his quest item in favor of tanks for a large portion of the early game. His spells might also benefit from being changed back to versions with the normal damage.

Woodelf Lord's improved spell damage makes him a bit tougher than normal to kill for quests in the early game, but not as much as Goru-Nezar. Debatable.

[Stalkerr]

Priests: Improvements to utility spells like bevi or halo are really nice. The improved scaling on healing spells is subtle, but well done. Attack spells from Soulstrike and up might be a little too strong, while the "vs undead" spells lack in usefulness due to poor design of their mana cost and damage comparatively to normal attack spells (ie  with Exorcism, you spend 12-15% more mana than Soul Rip to do 5% more damage vs undead only). Increased stat maxes also make priests slightly stronger than they should be vs other magic users.

I feel that Exorcism and Disrupt should both be changed from ability 17 to ability 1,  I feel like there might be some negotiation room with their mana costs as well.  I really dislike the increased stats.  We could deal with this in other ways that might be better than a flat increase across the board to all stats.

Mages:  Room spells do way too much damage. Mage room spells were already the best in the game by a lot, so having them do as much as 1200 dmg before MR is a bit out of control. There is also some weird scaling on certain spells. For example, Eldritch Fury does more damage than Magma Blast on Spellmod, even though Magma Blast generally is much more difficult to acquire.

Druids:  Overall, Druids do pretty well in Spellmod. The improvement to rgen makes it even better than it was before. While Druid room damage is nice, it's also not comparable to Mage room damage, as Atem suffers from being able to be directly resisted.

Well..that bug with atem is a simple change in the database, I believe this is a design flaw and not truely intended.  I'd agree that magma seems like it should be the higher damage of the two spells, but I see that elfu is a slightly higher level spell, so I can see the thought process that made the two spells that way.  I would think that simply because magma blast is hot type damage it should have a higher base than eflu.  When I had originally suggested spellmod I did make a version of it that changed all the monster spells back to base damage but I didnt include any changes to the roomspells.  Now I havent seen any mages taking huge advantage from their increased AOE damage, druids on the other hand I definitely see players greatly out performing their skill level.

[Greater]

I feel that Exorcism and Disrupt should both be changed from ability 17 to ability 1,  I feel like there might be some negotiation room with their mana costs as well.

This would be an interesting change, and would certainly make them more useful. Alternatively, what about leaving their damage and mana costs the same, but bringing in some efficiency by splitting them into 2 shots per round with the same total damage? This would make it the clear winner against undead vs soul rip.

[Stalkerr]

This would be an interesting change, and would certainly make them more useful. Alternatively, what about leaving their damage and mana costs the same, but bringing in some efficiency by splitting them into 2 shots per round with the same total damage? This would make it the clear winner against undead vs soul rip.

Uh..depends on what their messages look like, I dont think I'd want to change them and if its just not a message that work...and neither of them really work but since there is no flavor to the disrupt message I could see making it a multi hit spell and adding a message for it.  The exorcism spell has a nice message about pointing a finger and zapping for damage...a double finger point zap just doesn't work for me.  Considering the high level undead spots that exist, I wouldnt mind toying with the idea of making exor a free to cast spell.

[Vile]

Druids:  Overall, Druids do pretty well in Spellmod. The improvement to rgen makes it even better than it was before. While Druid room damage is nice, it's also not comparable to Mage room damage, as Atem suffers from being able to be directly resisted.

Rule #1 ignore Jolene.

Druids are by far the worst of the spellcasters. Their healing hardly improves (increased duration of regen is nothing special) and atem being resistable makes it worthless for room scripting. Most of their damage spells being elemental only makes them weaker and more susceptible to resistances. They are truly putrid.

Priest vs Druid is laughable. My druid with 5th quest spells had no chance of killing Game's priest who didn't even have his 5th spells. He could outheal my damage.

Looking at the damage comparison, priests are not far behind mages/druids then throw in healing for 300 and it's not even close.

[MudHunter]

Wow. I didnt even reply, and Vile was all up ons me.

</3

I dunno. I dont have problems with priests. With either char Ive had during spellmod. I think you just suck.

[Greater]

Their healing hardly improves (increased duration of regen is nothing special)

Normal     - LVL Gain Cap: 40 -- (@lvl 40): Heal 4 to 8, for 10 rounds
60 avg healing per cast @ cap
5 avg healing per 1 mana spent
Spell Mod - LVL Gain Cap: 50 -- (@lvl 50): Heal 4 to 9, for 19 rounds
123.5 avg healing per cast @ cap
10.3 avg healing per 1 mana spent

And now to compare that to mend, which is unchanged by Spell Mod:

LVL Gain Cap: 30 -- (@lvl 30): Heal 12 to 27
19.5 avg healing per cast @ cap
9.75 avg healing per 1 mana spent

The healing is still obviously delivered over time. It's not always as potent as gigantic 5th good priest heals (nor should it be), but it's a clear improvement from the normal numbers.

Priest vs Druid is laughable. My druid with 5th quest spells had no chance of killing Game's priest who didn't even have his 5th spells. He could outheal my damage.

I can agree that this might be a problem for fire spells, though questing for Boulder or Frozen Spike are both still viable options. The elemental summon spells don't scale high enough, which is probably exactly what could be targeted to adjust this. It's pretty damn easy to pick up 15-25 rfir without even trying, which makes both Ember and Inferno weak generally. Game was a neko priest, so a phoenix feather and crimson bracers would've put him at 25% reduced hot dmg, plus likely damn close to a 50% spell dmg reduction from MR.

[Crabster]

Rule #1 ignore Jolene.

Druids are by far the worst of the spellcasters. Their healing hardly improves (increased duration of regen is nothing special) and atem being resistable makes it worthless for room scripting. Most of their damage spells being elemental only makes them weaker and more susceptible to resistances. They are truly putrid.

Priest vs Druid is laughable. My druid with 5th quest spells had no chance of killing Game's priest who didn't even have his 5th spells. He could outheal my damage.

Looking at the damage comparison, priests are not far behind mages/druids then throw in healing for 300 and it's not even close.

i agree kinda....priests higher level with mr are king to all other casters....

priest #1 mage #2 druid #3

u had ur 5th quest spells and u were higher level and i still won...not sure thats how it should have worked....priest are animals not bible thumpers...

[Zetetic]

From the perspective of a Priest, I'm definitely OP. The lower levels were still fairly horrible if I didn't have party members, but that's Priest for you.

- Spell damage is too high on Priest from Fury upwards. Reduce the max damage.
- Undead targeting spells are still too weak. Turn is fairly good, but I feel that anti-undead should be where priests really shine. Disrupt is laughable. DeathCow's suggestion of no or low mana cost is good, but the damage output from these spells should be improved.
- Sacrifice is worthless. See some of the suggestions for Dark Transfusion
- Dark transfusion (level 50 evil quest spell) is horrifically useless. It is a slap in the face compared to Divine Healing. If it cost 0 mana to cast it might be worthwhile, but the ratio of health cost to healing given is terrible. I'd prefer to see it be more like a damage over time spell to the priest, with perhaps a party regeneration type effect. Alternately, make the healing from it party based and reduce the max drainlife from it.
- Many lower level debuffs are not worth using (curse spells primarily, glitterdust as well, divine disfavour is good for bosses). I'd like to see their mana cost reduced drastically and their effects doubled or more so that Priest scripting becomes about debuffing your foes as you go. This would make their gameplay a little more unique.
- Stone to Flesh would be better as a buff spell that makes you immune to stoneskin, petrification, partial petrification.
- Changes to bevi are a godsend (see what I did there?).

From what I've seen of the Mage spells:
- Low level Mage buffs could really do with more advantages. Level 10 quest rooms for a low HP Mage is still the hardest by far.
- Maybe make the low level buffs for Mage make you immune to certain low level spells. Have the some of the buffs remove others or make you weak against something else, so that there is always a counter to spells you are buffing with.
Resist cold could make you immune to frost jet, and other cold spells cast by low level monsters, similar things for other spells.
- This would open up new scripting opportunities for Mage 2 and 3 classes, as well as making their gameplay a little more unique.
- I would improve the starting level of AC for spells such as armr, shld and so on, but make their improvement per level slower. This would definitely help the Mage-2 classes.

From what I've seen of the Druid spells:
- Room spells (such as mass entangle) being able to be resisted by monsters has hurt Druids the most. So much of their utility is based on their ability to have a spell for every situation, many of them room spell debuffs.
- Inferno as the 5th quest evil combat spell sucks just because of how easy it is to get fire resistance. An end cast that sets someone on fire would be nice, but the easiest thing to do is just raise the damage on it a bit to compensate for that downside.

[Greater]

From the perspective of a Priest, I'm definitely OP. The lower levels were still fairly horrible if I didn't have party members, but that's Priest for you.

- Spell damage is too high on Priest from Fury upwards. Reduce the max damage.

Dragonfire  (@lvl 30): Damage(-MR) 160 to 350 - 255 Avg
Earthfist     (@lvl 30): Damage(-MR) 140 to 320 - 230 Avg -9.8%
Divine Fury (@lvl 30): Damage(-MR) 120 to 290 - 205 Avg -19.6%

Forked Light    (@lvl 35): Damage(-MR) 200 to 410 - 305 Avg
Elemental Fury(@lvl 35): Damage(-MR) 180 to 400 - 290 Avg -4.9%
Soulstrike        (@lvl 35): Damage(-MR) 160 to 375 - 267.5 Avg -12.3%

Magma  (@lvl 45): Damage(-MR) 360 to 630 - 495 avg
Ember   (@lvl 45): Damage(-MR) 270 to 600 - 435 avg -12.1%
Sphere  (@lvl 45): Damage(-MR) 265 to 570 - 417.5 avg -15.8%
Soul Rip (@lvl 45): Damage(-MR) 250 to 580 - 415 avg  -16.2%

Necromantic Bolt(@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 380 to 815 + (@lvl 55): DrainLife 18 to 145 - 679 Total Avg
Prismatic Beam   (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 365 to 915, +status ailment every hit - 640 Avg -5.7%
Inferno              (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 380 to 885 - 632.5 Avg -6.8%
Eldritch Fury       (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 400 to 850 - 625 Avg -8%
Boulder              (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 355 to 865 - 610 Avg -10.2%
Comet                 (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 330 to 885 - 607.5 -10.5%
Magma Blast       (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 360 to 780 - 570 Avg -16.1%
Tainted Word     (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)350 to 775 - 562.5 Avg -17.2%
Frozen Spike      (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 305 to 805 - 555 Avg -18.3%
Ember                 (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 330 to 750 - 540 Avg -20.5%
Balanced Word  (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)325 to 750 - 537.5 Avg -20.8%
Exalted Word     (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)300 to 725 - 512.5 Avg -24.5%
Soul Rip             (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 300 to 720 - 510 Avg  -24.9%

So onto the final priest numbers:
Divine Fury (@lvl 30): Damage(-MR) 120 to 290 - 205 Avg -19.6%
Soulstrike        (@lvl 35): Damage(-MR) 160 to 375 - 267.5 Avg -12.3%
Soul Rip (@lvl 45): Damage(-MR) 250 to 580 - 415 avg  -16.2%
Tainted Word     (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)350 to 775 - 562.5 Avg -17.2%
Balanced Word  (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)325 to 750 - 537.5 Avg -20.8%
Exalted Word     (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR)300 to 725 - 512.5 Avg -24.5%
Soul Rip             (@lvl 55): Damage(-MR) 300 to 720 - 510 Avg  -24.9%

Although Soulstrike and possibly Soul Rip might be slightly too high around the levels you get them, overall Priest damage is already well below the damage of Mages or Druids. I think some of the problem people are having is that Mages and Druids go head to head with Priests, who happen to be the anti spellcasting spellcaster. This strength is compounded by easy access to at least some elemental resists, and also by increased MR due to the 40 bonus wisdom available to Priests. I get that Mages have been walking through most classes without a problem for the entire push, but that doesn't make Priests automatically op in every way because Mages can't kill them as easily.

The numbers pretty much speak for themselves.

[Stalkerr]

The numbers pretty much speak for themselves.

Yes..but they will lie if you let them.  Priests-pretty much-get a version of every other classes utility spells.  On top of that, they have superior defensive spells coupled with a more ideal casting stat.  What they do miss out on in utility that other classes have:  a couple spells that don't work correctly(at least not all of their effects) and one really broken ass spell.  They do get everything else along with the rest of the package.

That said, I don't think their damage is too far out of line at base levels but I do think that the spells scale for too many levels.

Lemme tell a short story here for some perspective.   When I was making changes to gypsies earlier this year I often heard 'Well then why don't missionaries and clerics get XYZ spell/change/whatever'.  The point here is that while its easy to look at 'Mage-2' and 'Priest-2' and think oh well they are roughly equivalent but when it comes down to it, they simply are not.  So while you might be able to make a fair comparison of the usefulness of the whole spell trees to one another, if you pluck out any one spell and put it beside a spell from the other tree you won't get an accurate picture of players who have those spells and what they can and can't do in game.  I think they even without spellmod on priest spells they are a perfectly reasonable class-perfectly strong class.  That said, I don't mind them being stronger, and have no intention of gutting their new found glory.  They might need to have their power level reeled in a little though. 

[Greater]

- Dark transfusion (level 50 evil quest spell) is horrifically useless. It is a slap in the face compared to Divine Healing. If it cost 0 mana to cast it might be worthwhile, but the ratio of health cost to healing given is terrible. I'd prefer to see it be more like a damage over time spell to the priest, with perhaps a party regeneration type effect. Alternately, make the healing from it party based and reduce the max drainlife from it.

I don't think it's quite horrifically useless, but it costs way too much mana. Currently it's healing 200 for 50 mana and 60avg health...not exactly efficient.

The spell can be adjusted to be more efficient and worth using, but as long as Merciful Grace looks like this:

Spell Mod LVL Gain Cap: 70 -- (@lvl 70): Heal 115 to 305, CurePoison +100, Dispell (BlindUser)
Stock       LVL Gain Cap: 55 -- (@lvl 55): Heal 85 to 190, CurePoison +100, Dispell (BlindUser)

...it won't matter much.

In fact, Mgra may well be part of the reason Vile couldn't kill Game.

Many lower level debuffs are not worth using (curse spells primarily, glitterdust as well, divine disfavour is good for bosses). I'd like to see their mana cost reduced drastically and their effects doubled or more so that Priest scripting becomes about debuffing your foes as you go. This would make their gameplay a little more unique.

I agree that some (one? glitterdust) of these spells aren't worth using atm, but I also don't think it's a big deal that I'm not casting greater curse for the entire game. Blight and Black Wind are both great tools for long after you learn them, Wrathful Curse is top notch, and Damnation is also good when used properly. Infernal Darkness is pretty damn incredible for both pve and pvp.

[Stalkerr]

I don't think it's quite horrifically useless, but it costs way too much mana. Currently it's healing 200 for 50 mana and 60avg health...not exactly efficient.

The spell can be adjusted to be more efficient and worth using, but as long as Merciful Grace looks like this:

Spell Mod LVL Gain Cap: 70 -- (@lvl 70): Heal 115 to 305, CurePoison +100, Dispell (BlindUser)
Stock       LVL Gain Cap: 55 -- (@lvl 55): Heal 85 to 190, CurePoison +100, Dispell (BlindUser)

...it won't matter much.

In fact, Mgra may well be part of the reason Vile couldn't kill Game.

I agree that some (one? glitterdust) of these spells aren't worth using atm, but I also don't think it's a big deal that I'm not casting greater curse for the entire game. Blight and Black Wind are both great tools for long after you learn them, Wrathful Curse is top notch, and Damnation is also good when used properly. Infernal Darkness is pretty damn incredible for both pve and pvp.

That heal on mgra is probably inappropriate.

[mad]

it's retarded how you still get hit so hard by spells, and don't resist shit, ie stone giants

102 MR should resist a fair bit, but they still hit pretty hard with stupid AC + MR

at level 65+ as a tank you'd really hope to not get hit at all, or very little by this kinda shit. same with any boss caster. make MR more effective versus mobs and scale better with level.