Informal poll on 4 things

[Stalkerr]

• Question 1: Should smash be primarily a damage ability, or primarily a utility ability?
  
  
  • Damage; As a damage ability it would scale with level instead of spike with high maximum damage weapons.
  • Utility; As a utility it would be lower damage but have effects like a knockdown/stun.
• Question 2: Should witchunters be forced to passively resist friendly spells?
  
  
  • Yes; We can add more power to their combat for brief periods after a spell is resisted.
  • No; We leave witchunters pretty much where they are.
• Question 3: Should trainers cost money
  
  
  • Yes; Matching MMUD.
  • No; I prefer free training.
• Question 4: Should the changes following this question be made to the leather armour pool?
  
  
  • Yes; Those look like good changes and leather needs work.
  • No; Those changes don't look right, or leather is fine
  
  Name: giantskin tunic, Worn: Torso, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 650, AC/DR: 24.5/5, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 45.38
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin boots, Worn: Feet, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 115, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 60
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin helm, Worn: Head, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8/1, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 72
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin gauntlets, Worn: Hands, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 55.2
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin leggings, Worn: Legs, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8.5/1, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 76
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: darkenhide tunic, Worn: Torso, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 625, AC/DR: 16.5/5, Acc: 5, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 40
  >> Abilities: Stealth +10, Dodge +4, BSAccu +10, Shadow, Magical +1, MaxDamage +2
  
  Name: darkenhide boots, Worn: Feet, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 110, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 2, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 62.73
  >> Abilities: Magical +1, Stealth +10, Dodge +1
  
  Name: darkenhide helm, Worn: Head, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8/1, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 72
  >> Abilities: Percep +10, Dodge +3, Illu +25, Magical +1
  
  Name: darkenhide gauntlets, Worn: Hands, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 120, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 57.5
  >> Abilities: Magical +1, BsMaxDmg +5, BSAccu +5 -- Casts: [dark touch(1399), DrainLife 11 to 25, EvilInCombat]
  >> References: Casts: dark touch(1399)
  
  Name: darkenhide leggings, Worn: Legs, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 120, AC/DR: 8.5/1, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 79.17
  >> Abilities: Magical, BsMinDmg +5, BSAccu +15
  
  In addition to have these items appear in game, all dragonhide gear would be made level 35 and all shadow master gear would have the ninja only tag removed, and be made into the ninja armour type.  This would allow ninjas and leather+ armour to use the gear.

[Zetetic]

1) I don't really like the idea of giving Warriors and Paladins utility abilities for PVP. They already have their focus, and it isn't PVP. Damage it is.
2) I think that passively resisting friendly spells would be good - it suits the class. Witchies don't really feel like a massive priority just now - they're doing quite reasonable.
3) I always found that training costs most heavily effect spellcasters - they have to fork out so much money for their spells that they cannot always do both during the early game. Being that heavier armour classes tend to have a much easier time earning cash, this tends to be a rather harsh balance point. Realistically, what are we trying to balance by having costs on the trainers? I don't really see a point in it, particularly at the lower levels. You could make high level trainers cost large amounts of cash to try and reduce the flow of cash in the game, but I think this is better done in a different way.
4) Yes, though I do thing the giantskin armour should have a couple of +1-4HP per item added to it, just to give it some flavour. The darkenhide tunic I think should be slightly better - it doesn't compare all that favourably to the other high level armour wearable by leather. Would a leather wearer prefer to wear it over shining metallic robes? Even with the hidden AC from the shadow ability (do we know if this currently works in Gmud?), it's not amazing. It just needs slightly more to it. Can you perhaps make the armour give you immunity to the darken beasts darkness spell? That would give it a specific utility. I also think that the darkenhide should be more than lim-1, considering that 6 out of the 15 classes use leather. There are 6 limited plate chest pieces, with only 3 classes that can use them.

[Stalkerr]

1) I don't really like the idea of giving Warriors and Paladins utility abilities for PVP. They already have their focus, and it isn't PVP. Damage it is.

Well, in fairness their focus is Tanking.  Which is why utility seems like an option over damage.

2) I think that passively resisting friendly spells would be good - it suits the class. Witchies don't really feel like a massive priority just now - they're doing quite reasonable.

Well, we worked on this section of code yesterday, and the methods we'd need to use to adjust this are fresh in memory atm.  I was thinking that we could maybe work out some kind of comabt bonuses that they acquire for brief periods after resisting a spell.  Example.  Witchunters can store 2 charges of antimagic aura.  At the begining of each combat round they automatically expend 1 charge if available.  If they used a charge they get full use of combat bonuses for that full combat round.  At level 1 a witchunter's aura bonus is +1 max damage, and the aura gains +1 max damage every 10 levels there after.  The witchunter gains +1 crits to his aura at level 5, and an additional +1 crit every 10 levels after that.  This is a trade off for the incidental resisting of friendly spells.

3) I always found that training costs most heavily effect spellcasters - they have to fork out so much money for their spells that they cannot always do both during the early game. Being that heavier armour classes tend to have a much easier time earning cash, this tends to be a rather harsh balance point. Realistically, what are we trying to balance by having costs on the trainers? I don't really see a point in it, particularly at the lower levels. You could make high level trainers cost large amounts of cash to try and reduce the flow of cash in the game, but I think this is better done in a different way.

This is kinda true, training costs effect spell casters the most, because the gold tends to be in tank oriented areas.  It think this is somewhat mitigated by group scripting and or gangs though.  One problem that comes in that early stage is a huge chunk of goldless exp that comes from some rather ill conceived exp rewards which I'd like to remove, but I'm sure a sizable number of people prefer the level 15 quest exp bummp. That said, this does bring up a good point:

416	chainmail halter	15	50% for 1 per 4h	4,000 Copper
14	chainmail hauberk	25	35% for 1 per 3h	4,000 Copper
24	chainmail leggings	24	35% for 1 per 3h	1,200 Copper
418	fine breastplate	3	10% for 1 per 12h	300,000 Copper
19	full plate corselet	2	5% for 1 per 4h	50,000 Copper
28	full plate leggings	2	5% for 1 per 4h	15,000 Copper
17	half-plate corselet	5	8% for 1 per 4h	18,000 Copper
18	light plate corselet	3	5% for 1 per 4h	30,000 Copper
27	light plate leggings	3	5% for 1 per 4h	10,000 Copper
25	scalemail leggings	22	35% for 1 per 4h	1,600 Copper
15	scalemail tunic	22	35% for 1 per 4h	5,000 Copper
417	steel brassiere	5	10% for 1 per 4h	18,000 Copper

This shit is cheap.  Maybe scale should be bumped up toward the current full plate costs, and full plate more into the mid platinum range.

4) Yes, though I do thing the giantskin armour should have a couple of +1-4HP per item added to it, just to give it some flavour. The darkenhide tunic I think should be slightly better - it doesn't compare all that favourably to the other high level armour wearable by leather. Would a leather wearer prefer to wear it over shining metallic robes? Even with the hidden AC from the shadow ability (do we know if this currently works in Gmud?), it's not amazing. It just needs slightly more to it. Can you perhaps make the armour give you immunity to the darken beasts darkness spell? That would give it a specific utility. I also think that the darkenhide should be more than lim-1, considering that 6 out of the 15 classes use leather. There are 6 limited plate chest pieces, with only 3 classes that can use them.

Well, smrs are a whole tier above where I these items are aimed.  That said I kinda feel like this this item has plenty of power, I was actually more concerned that I had overloaded it.   Shadow absolutely adds to secondary defense so this is in many cases 26.5/5 ac, a little dodge..and combat enhancements.  I'm not really aiming for it to outclass all other options, just for it to be an option.  I suppose I could throw a few +hps on the giantskin set..doesn't matter too much to me.  I'm posting this cause I want to hear input like this, even if I don't immediately agree maybe other people will think these items can use some more power.

[Vile]

1) +1 Utility. Knockdown/stun is too powerful though. Something like knockback (-acc) or concuss (small amount of conf) depending on the type of weapon. Either way the damage needs to be scaled better to prevent the 500+ smash roundings. And tie the damage and utility proc % to enc.
2) Resist friendly spells. Maybe when witchies are resting out of combat they won't resist? Or give them a medi style ability to enable this.
3) Keep it free. 52+ training is painful enough.
4) Any buff to leather is good. darkenhide tunic ac seems a little weak. Add some +dmg to giantskin? How about a high level leather belt, there is no high level equivalent to stormmetal belt. An evil version of golden braided belt would be cool.

[Greater]

• Question 1: Should smash be primarily a damage ability, or primarily a utility ability?
  
  
  • Damage; As a damage ability it would scale with level instead of spike with high maximum damage weapons.
  • Utility; As a utility it would be lower damage but have effects like a knockdown/stun.

The damage on smash is already high enough. However, adding utility on 100% of smash hits seems a little excessive. Keeping the damage the same but adding a lowish % proc chance on a utility on-hit spell doesn't seem as inappropriate as 100% knockdown. A 20% chance on hit to lower AC and Dodge by 5-7 each would provide some utility to the ability, while still leaving items like nets useful for classes that don't get a hold person ability.

• Question 2: Should witchunters be forced to passively resist friendly spells?
  
  
  • Yes; We can add more power to their combat for brief periods after a spell is resisted.
  • No; We leave witchunters pretty much where they are.

I don't like either option here. Witchunters are already very strong, and being able to put spells like Frenzy or Dcor on them ends up being a bit imbalanced. While I don't think it should affect every friendly spell type, Witchunter Antimagic needs to at least have the resist affect on friendly Mage and Bard spells. Simply put, Com 5 is way too strong when coupled with buffs from these classes.

• Question 3: Should trainers cost money
  
  
  • Yes; Matching MMUD.
  • No; I prefer free training.

Trainers need to cost money the same as they do in MMUD. I'd also like to see buyable plate cost between 3 and 5 times more than it currently does to balance the cost of spells for casters vs armor for plate wearers.

• Question 4: Should the changes following this question be made to the leather armour pool?
  
  
  • Yes; Those look like good changes and leather needs work.
  • No; Those changes don't look right, or leather is fine
  
  Name: giantskin tunic, Worn: Torso, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 650, AC/DR: 24.5/5, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 45.38
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin boots, Worn: Feet, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 115, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 60
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin helm, Worn: Head, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8/1, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 72
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin gauntlets, Worn: Hands, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 55.2
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: giantskin leggings, Worn: Legs, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 45, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8.5/1, Acc: 0, Limit: 0, AC/Enc: 76
  >> Abilities: Magical +1
  
  Name: darkenhide tunic, Worn: Torso, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 625, AC/DR: 16.5/5, Acc: 5, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 40
  >> Abilities: Stealth +10, Dodge +4, BSAccu +10, Shadow, Magical +1, MaxDamage +2
  
  Name: darkenhide boots, Worn: Feet, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 110, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 2, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 62.73
  >> Abilities: Magical +1, Stealth +10, Dodge +1
  
  Name: darkenhide helm, Worn: Head, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 125, AC/DR: 8/1, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 72
  >> Abilities: Percep +10, Dodge +3, Illu +25, Magical +1
  
  Name: darkenhide gauntlets, Worn: Hands, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 120, AC/DR: 6/0.9, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 57.5
  >> Abilities: Magical +1, BsMaxDmg +5, BSAccu +5 -- Casts: [dark touch(1399), DrainLife 11 to 25, EvilInCombat]
  >> References: Casts: dark touch(1399)
  
  Name: darkenhide leggings, Worn: Legs, Armr Type: Leather, Level: 50, Enc: 120, AC/DR: 8.5/1, Acc: 3, Limit: 1, AC/Enc: 79.17
  >> Abilities: Magical, BsMinDmg +5, BSAccu +15
  

I like the armor, and yes, leather does need some help.

In addition to have these items appear in game, all dragonhide gear would be made level 35 and all shadow master gear would have the ninja only tag removed, and be made into the ninja armour type.  This would allow ninjas and leather+ armour to use the gear.

As important as the new armor suits imo! This is a huge change and is quite welcome from my perspective.

4) Yes, though I do thing the giantskin armour should have a couple of +1-4HP per item added to it, just to give it some flavour.

I don't really see a need for this, especially on non limited armor.

4) The darkenhide tunic I think should be slightly better - it doesn't compare all that favourably to the other high level armour wearable by leather. Would a leather wearer prefer to wear it over shining metallic robes? Even with the hidden AC from the shadow ability (do we know if this currently works in Gmud?), it's not amazing. It just needs slightly more to it. Can you perhaps make the armour give you immunity to the darken beasts darkness spell? That would give it a specific utility.

Are we looking at different items?

We're talking about a tunic that effectively has:
26.5 AC vs non backstab attacks
4 Dodge
10 Stealth (Improves BS Dmg)
10 BS Acc
2 Max Damage
AND weighs less than dragon tunics

This thing is sick as hell. Don't change a thing and I guarantee this will be highly sought after.
[/list][/list][/list]

[Stalkerr]

The damage on smash is already high enough. However, adding utility on 100% of smash hits seems a little excessive. Keeping the damage the same but adding a lowish % proc chance on a utility on-hit spell doesn't seem as inappropriate as 100% knockdown. A 20% chance on hit to lower AC and Dodge by 5-7 each would provide some utility to the ability, while still leaving items like nets useful for classes that don't get a hold person ability.

I don't like either option here. Witchunters are already very strong, and being able to put spells like Frenzy or Dcor on them ends up being a bit imbalanced. While I don't think it should affect every friendly spell type, Witchunter Antimagic needs to at least have the resist affect on friendly Mage and Bard spells. Simply put, Com 5 is way too strong when coupled with buffs from these classes.

To be clear on smash, the current version of it is simply unacceptable.  Plate is already a dominate force at low level and does not need a power spike at ~ Level 20.  I don't have a 'damage' version of smash in mind atm as I haven't fully investigated potential acc vs ac setups for tanks at various levels.  I'm also not opposed to making a different combat ability for warlocks as they are obviously gonna be looking for different combat stats than warriors.

[Zetetic]

Well, in fairness their focus is Tanking.  Which is why utility seems like an option over damage.

Well argued, you've changed my mind. Would perhaps a taunt style ability for Paladin/Warrior be suitable? Lowers effective Charm of the character when combat targets are being chosen by monsters? A debuff to enemy accuracy would benefit all party members as well.

Well, we worked on this section of code yesterday, and the methods...

Fair enough. If you can get it in easily, go for it, trial it and let's play with it.

It think this is somewhat mitigated by group scripting and or gangs though.

So is more or less everything :)

One problem that comes in that early stage is a huge chunk of goldless exp that comes from some rather ill conceived exp rewards which I'd like to remove, but I'm sure a sizable number of people prefer the level 15 quest exp bummp.

I'd actually be happy to get rid of most of the exp rewards from these, but I'd quite like a slight bump to the abilities they give instead. There is tonnes of content for this level range, and it all gets skipped because of these exp bonuses.

This shit is cheap.  Maybe scale should be bumped up toward the current full plate costs, and full plate more into the mid platinum range.

Yup. Another suggestion I saw that has merit is to slap some minimum levels on some of the better plate gear. I would quite like to see people have to progress through the different suits of armour as their bank balance allows.

Well, smrs are a whole tier above where I these items are aimed.  That said I kinda feel like this this item has plenty of power, I was actually more concerned that I had overloaded it.   Shadow absolutely adds to secondary defense so this is in many cases 26.5/5 ac, a little dodge..and combat enhancements.  I'm not really aiming for it to outclass all other options, just for it to be an option.

Sure, but there are no other leather only level 50 limited armour sets, so if you are making them limited-1 why shouldn't they be powerful? It's quite possible that my distrust of the shadow ability is clouding my judgement here of the items balance. Just implement it and we'll soon find out how it does.

I don't really see a need for this, especially on non limited armor.

I agree that it doesn't need it at all. I like the stats of the armour and it seems fairly well balanced along with being a good progression from previous leather. The only reason I suggest it is to add flavour. In my mind leather armour being made from the skin of a creature, why not give it some bonus that it makes sense to be given from that creature. Hitpoints was just an easy one from Giants, and if you make the bonus really small per item, it won't affect the balance much.

[Stalkerr]

416	chainmail halter	15	50% for 1 per 4h	8,000 Copper
14	chainmail hauberk	25	35% for 1 per 3h	8,500 Copper
24	chainmail leggings	24	35% for 1 per 3h	3,500 Copper
418	fine breastplate	3	10% for 1 per 12h	300,000 Copper
19	full plate corselet	2	5% for 1 per 4h	350,000 Copper
28	full plate leggings	2	5% for 1 per 4h	150,000 Copper
17	half-plate corselet	5	8% for 1 per 4h	100,000 Copper
18	light plate corselet	3	5% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper
27	light plate leggings	3	5% for 1 per 4h	60,000 Copper
25	scalemail leggings	22	35% for 1 per 4h	15,000 Copper
15	scalemail tunic	22	35% for 1 per 4h	50,000 Copper
417	steel brassiere	5	10% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper

This is a version with prices increased..based on nothing.  Obviously we'll have to look at some other plate prices as there are other shops involved like blue tower, khaz, and the other rooms in town.  I'll probably try to make most of the price modifications via increase shop markups(obv not with the blue tower)...But this is just just kinda what I'm thinking on these prices.

[Greater]

416	chainmail halter	15	50% for 1 per 4h	8,000 Copper
14	chainmail hauberk	25	35% for 1 per 3h	8,500 Copper
24	chainmail leggings	24	35% for 1 per 3h	3,500 Copper
418	fine breastplate	3	10% for 1 per 12h	300,000 Copper
19	full plate corselet	2	5% for 1 per 4h	350,000 Copper
28	full plate leggings	2	5% for 1 per 4h	150,000 Copper
17	half-plate corselet	5	8% for 1 per 4h	100,000 Copper
18	light plate corselet	3	5% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper
27	light plate leggings	3	5% for 1 per 4h	60,000 Copper
25	scalemail leggings	22	35% for 1 per 4h	15,000 Copper
15	scalemail tunic	22	35% for 1 per 4h	50,000 Copper
417	steel brassiere	5	10% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper

This is a version with prices increased..based on nothing.  Obviously we'll have to look at some other plate prices as there are other shops involved like blue tower, khaz, and the other rooms in town.  I'll probably try to make most of the price modifications via increase shop markups(obv not with the blue tower)...But this is just just kinda what I'm thinking on these prices.

This looks great. Can't wait to see what the other shops look like!

[Stalkerr]

This looks great. Can't wait to see what the other shops look like!

Another option as Coarse Horse and I discussed.  Instead of a price adjustment, armour greater than scalemail removed from shop stock and distributed to low level mobs; examples:  Gravedigger's shovel,   Mermex Queen Area, Serpentkin Village, Cyclops.  This can be done via random drops from mobs like cocoons and from new low level chests on mobs like Serpentkin Chieftain and Cyclops.

• This has the advantage over the gold increase as in encourages more involved game play.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

This has the advantage over the gold increase as in encourages more involved game play.

My humble opinion:  I like the price increase and keeping plate available in stores.  The current economy has no real use for money in late game play, and characters are sitting with 500 runic in the bank and nothing to buy.  I'm all for keeping armor in the shops, but making gold harder to come by.  Decrease the fine broadsword drops in ancient crypt and reduce the amount of gold dropped in orc barracks.  Buying your first set of plate armor should be the culmination of many hours of tedious silver collecting and countless runs to deposit, and should feel like an accomplishment much like completing first quest, not just something you do after scripting first arena for a few days.  The platinum windfall at Storm Giants needs to go away as well.  Making the runic coin a rarity in the realm, will also serve to increase pvp.  "I can't afford to buy what he has, so I'll take it from him."

[Jigga]

What if smash either did damage, or knocked the opponent down, but not both in one round? Just a thought.

Yes, Witchunters should resist friendly spells, as long as enemy spells do considerably less damage to them than other classes. I'm not sure how magic res works at the moment.

I like having to pay for training. It encourages more live playing, particularly in the beginning stages of a game. It also slows people down a little. There are areas with no cash that earn more exp at lower levels, having to earn money helps prevent tanks from taking off ahead of everyone as fast as they do.

New leather? Why not. Though I dont like the idea of making ninja-only stuff available to other classes. They should have their own stuff.

One thing I've been saying forever though, is that AC should not effect an opponent's accuracy. It should lower the damage taken and that's it. Someone big and clunky should be an easy target. I think AC/DR should be redone. With the current numbers, maybe have it so AC = % of time it absorbs damage / DR = % of damage absorbed. So if you have 100/40 AC, 100% of the time, you'd receive 40% less damage.

[Hayden]

416	chainmail halter	15	50% for 1 per 4h	8,000 Copper
14	chainmail hauberk	25	35% for 1 per 3h	8,500 Copper
24	chainmail leggings	24	35% for 1 per 3h	3,500 Copper
418	fine breastplate	3	10% for 1 per 12h	300,000 Copper
19	full plate corselet	2	5% for 1 per 4h	350,000 Copper
28	full plate leggings	2	5% for 1 per 4h	150,000 Copper
17	half-plate corselet	5	8% for 1 per 4h	100,000 Copper
18	light plate corselet	3	5% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper
27	light plate leggings	3	5% for 1 per 4h	60,000 Copper
25	scalemail leggings	22	35% for 1 per 4h	15,000 Copper
15	scalemail tunic	22	35% for 1 per 4h	50,000 Copper
417	steel brassiere	5	10% for 1 per 4h	120,000 Copper

This is a version with prices increased..based on nothing.  Obviously we'll have to look at some other plate prices as there are other shops involved like blue tower, khaz, and the other rooms in town.  I'll probably try to make most of the price modifications via increase shop markups(obv not with the blue tower)...But this is just just kinda what I'm thinking on these prices.

Graveyard cash via the shovel will be a much more lucrative business than ever before.

[Hurricane Omega]

I am gathering some data on SMASH and aside from a few levels from about 30 through 45, it just isn't useful without the knockdown.  The way BASH is set up, the nerf to crit, the elimination of QND, and the addition of a sixth swing, SMASH just doesn't do enough damage unless you can wield the Tree Trunk against a mob that doesn't need a magical weapon to be hit.  The quests currently make leveling from 30 to 45 very quick anyway.  This is very similar to why one handed weapons are SO much better than any two handed ones.

[Jigga]

I am gathering some data on SMASH and aside from a few levels from about 30 through 45, it just isn't useful without the knockdown.  The way BASH is set up, the nerf to crit, the elimination of QND, and the addition of a sixth swing, SMASH just doesn't do enough damage unless you can wield the Tree Trunk against a mob that doesn't need a magical weapon to be hit.  The quests currently make leveling from 30 to 45 very quick anyway.  This is very similar to why one handed weapons are SO much better than any two handed ones.

agreed... i had a hard time deciding how i felt about smash with bash being as overpowered as it is... i just had some new idea though

1. Bash needs to be toned down
2. Give crits the same damage formula as bash currently has, that's about a proper amount of damage. I've felt for a long time that crits (in their original form) do way too much damage.
3. Have smash do the same damage it originally did, but have it either do damage or knockdown, but not both in each round. This way it's kind of a gamble... you might hit them hard, or you might knock them down.
4. Or, if bash was left the same (which I really don't like), then perhaps make smash a utility skill... have it only knock down the opponent. Of course, with the chance of missing.