List of Current Changes - Please review/comment

[Vile]

Awesome sounds good. Any ETA at this stage? Need any testers?

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

Awesome sounds good. Any ETA at this stage? Need any testers?

Vitoc's going to open a testing realm which will most likely be open to all.  I'll post info here as applicable.

[Kakashi]

I am not sure if I missed this or not, but how come Warlocks are not being addressed in any of the changes?

If gypsies and missionaries are getting combat 3, doesn't it make sense to give warlocks combat 4?  What would be the point of EVER being a warlock if gypsy gets the combat boost?  The only trade left is leather/sneak/bs/picklocks/etc for chainmail. 

Thoughts?

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

Warlocks are being visited.  Some of the things we've done thus far include changing the red enameled scalemail to chainmail so warlocks can wear it.  We've also reduced the exp chart to 150%, and boosted them to 5-8 hp's per level.  We're still considering how to make warlock's more playable, so there will be further changes coming.

[Kakashi]

Ahh cool!  Glad to hear that.

I certainly do not consider myself an authority in any way, shape, or form, however here are my thoughts on the subject.  Please feel free to offer your opinions on mine:

1) I definitely like the increase in HP
2) I like the reduction of EXP chart however, I think the EXP COULD stay at 185% but only if they had other boosts
3) changing red enameled scalemail to chain seems like it might only address the warlock at higher levels. Also, for the record, I like that warlocks are chainmail.  Not only is it the only class that uses chain, but i dont think they should have plate or scale based on lore reasons.

Here are some thoughts on a few potential ideas, with justification:
1) give them combat 4. I Know a lot of people want to resist this idea, but if you think about it, both DRUID and PRIEST magics have a class with combat 4.  You might say that it is because they have priest/druid-1., but warlocks get mage-2. My response to that is easy:  as far as non-pure magic classes go, non-pure mage is def the weakest.  No heals, no cures, no healing rate, limited, similar combat, etc..

2) I always kind of thought warlocks as a "mage warrior" or "death knight" etc.  With that said, it might be cool if warlocks had a few new spells that "imbue" magics into their weapons. The spell could give bonuses to their wep.  Maybe added elemental damage (ice, fire, lightning, earth, etc). Or maybe it could apply slows, or blinds, etc.  It would have to be balanced of course.

3) give them picklocks and/or trap finding.  These are conveniences that might make warlocks feel more useful.  I mean, they are magical.

4) boost some of the standard mage spells to be slightly better (more AC from shld, more dodge from blur, etc).  This might mess with other mage classes tho.

Anyway, just some thoughts.  I am glad changes are being made.  If you want to discuss this more, i'd be happy to help think it through.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

3) changing red enameled scalemail to chain seems like it might only address the warlock at higher levels. Also, for the record, I like that warlocks are chainmail.  Not only is it the only class that uses chain, but i dont think they should have plate or scale based on lore reasons.

We were discussing the lore of the warlock as well, and decided to keep them in chainmail (It is stated the majority of the King's BattleCorps are warlocks!), so they need chain.  Also, we will be keeping them limited to 1-H weapons as they need a free hand to direct their combat spells.

Here are some thoughts on a few potential ideas, with justification:
1) give them combat 4. I Know a lot of people want to resist this idea, but if you think about it, both DRUID and PRIEST magics have a class with combat 4.  You might say that it is because they have priest/druid-1., but warlocks get mage-2. My response to that is easy:  as far as non-pure magic classes go, non-pure mage is def the weakest.  No heals, no cures, no healing rate, limited, similar combat, etc..

We'll be leaving Warlocks at combat-3 so they are not on par with Rangers and Paladins.  Rangers are still the toughest class to level, so they should have a combat rating above most other classes.

2) I always kind of thought warlocks as a "mage warrior" or "death knight" etc.  With that said, it might be cool if warlocks had a few new spells that "imbue" magics into their weapons. The spell could give bonuses to their wep.  Maybe added elemental damage (ice, fire, lightning, earth, etc). Or maybe it could apply slows, or blinds, etc.  It would have to be balanced of course.

This would require some coding and development on the database side.  Vitoc has given a limited number of things he's willing to fix as far as coding is concerned, so we have to be selective about what we ask him to fix.  This will probably not make it into the list.  However, this is a great idea that could be pursued for Warlocks on WebMud!

3) give them picklocks and/or trap finding.  These are conveniences that might make warlocks feel more useful.  I mean, they are magical.

4) boost some of the standard mage spells to be slightly better (more AC from shld, more dodge from blur, etc).  This might mess with other mage classes tho.

In lieu of this, we are working on some significant spell updates for warlocks.  We're tossing around the idea to make Gypsy's Mage-1, and move all the Mage-2 spells to Mage-1.  Then, leave Warlocks at Mage-2 and move the following spells from Mage-3 to Mage-2:  Wind (party speed), Mass Frenzy, Shimmering Mirage, Wizard Knock ( in lieu of picklocks), and Sleep.  This would make a warlock a more useful party member, since they would have party buffs. 

And yes, this would be a nerf to Gypsy's going from Mage-2 to Mage-1.  Even though they wouldn't lose any of their current spells, they would lose half of their mana.  That would have to be taken into consideration, and either have the Gypsy class start with a mana bonus (which really doesn't make sense) or buff them in other ways to compensate.  I really think that Warlock's should have spells that are not available to Gypsy's though. 

[Kakashi]

Awesome, thanks for the reply.

I was thinking a little more about the "imbuing" and perhaps 1 implementation could be "quest weapons."  Similar to how Witchunters have a quest for magebane, or spell casters have a quest for spells, warlocks could have a quest to obtain a weapon that has a particular element.  So maybe three (or more) quests for particular weapons (e.g. fire, ice, lightning) where the weapon would have an "additional" damage effect like the flametongue or sunsword, etc.

Just a thought. 

I do like your idea of moving spells around.  I also firmly believe that adding NEW spells always gets incredibly complicated.  So transitioning some Mage-3 spells to Mage-2 probably would be more in line with balance.

In any case, I am glad they are being addressed :)  Looking forward to it!

[rote]

Some alternative solutions:

1. Give thieves +10 or +20 accuracy, but keep them at combat 2   
2. Increase all resting hit point gains by 1.5x or 2x (spell healing is very powerful)
3. Double the mana cost of slep and stun
4. Give plate items an accuracy malus, and give scalemail a lesser accuracy malus
5. Create an additional movement speed range in the "none" encumbrance range to be slightly faster than current
6. Create a slight malus to casting spells in between rounds that affect your physical combat. Any will work: slower swing speed, less acc, less crit, less max damage
7. Reduce all damage by a flat 10% (or increase all player hps by 10%, that might be easier though less tailored)

[Greater]

In lieu of this, we are working on some significant spell updates for warlocks.  We're tossing around the idea to make Gypsy's Mage-1, and move all the Mage-2 spells to Mage-1.  Then, leave Warlocks at Mage-2 and move the following spells from Mage-3 to Mage-2:  Wind (party speed), Mass Frenzy, Shimmering Mirage, Wizard Knock ( in lieu of picklocks), and Sleep.  This would make a warlock a more useful party member, since they would have party buffs. 

And yes, this would be a nerf to Gypsy's going from Mage-2 to Mage-1.  Even though they wouldn't lose any of their current spells, they would lose half of their mana.  That would have to be taken into consideration, and either have the Gypsy class start with a mana bonus (which really doesn't make sense) or buff them in other ways to compensate.  I really think that Warlock's should have spells that are not available to Gypsy's though.

Giving Warlocks all those spells seems like a bit much. They already have several single buffs which are more than enough to make them a useful party member, plus they have the capacity to tank if set up correctly. Warlocks also do formidable damage with spells, particularly with spell mod installed, which is quite useful throughout the game. I agree that part of the answer is Warlock only spells (and Gypsy only ones for that matter too). It just makes sense to give them a few unique buffs and maybe a small kit of items like Gypsies have (swampside camp items, deck of cards).

Here are a few ideas:

Make Scarlet Doublet usable by any alignment
Add some more Warlock-only shields. Currently on GMUD, silvery shield (a level 10 item), is their best offhand.
Improve 1H weapon selection
More unique mana regen options, ideally mixed with other stats Warlock want like ac, accuracy, max dmg, or crit
Improve arcane tome to be useful all the time and not just once a day

New spell examples:
giant strength - +5 str/+5 enc base, +10/+10 at cap with medium mana cost/difficulty, self or targeted
haste - +100 Quickness with high mana cost/difficulty (This abil makes you move faster through rooms),(removes and is removed by all variants of speed/quik) self only, This spell alone would make Warlocks the ideal party leader
barrier - -5/0 AC, +0/4 to 0/7 DR with medium mana cost/difficulty (removes and is removed by magic armor), self only
dissolve bonds - freedom for Warlocks only, higher base level, high mana cost and difficulty (very high ideally)
immolate - room damage over time/debuff 2-4 fire dmg/round base, 3-6 fire dmg/round at cap, -5/0 ac, -5 accuracy, -5 Rfir
mass smite - smite for party, medium mana cost and difficulty (removes and is removed by smite)

I think it's important to stay thematically with what the Warlock is, and feel that new additions like this that would fit with them make a lot of sense.

[cytrik]

I dont entirely agree with warlock only spells, or gypsy only for that matter... Ultimately a warlock is a branch of the mage spellcraft line... Therefore I dont believe there should ever be a warlock/gypsy spell that a mage itself cannot cast. It just makes sense.
I would apply that theory to any priestly lines also.  I see no reason they should branch away from the mage line.

The scarlet doublet is a good idea. It is such a nice item, but rarely gets used due to being evil only.

I also think the whole off-hand side of things needs looking at. Most classes max out their offhand very early on, with a choice of about 4 items.

The arcane tome would be nice if it was a fixed, mana regen item. Being limited, 1 use a day is kinda rubbish and in the case of a warlock or gypsy, you're better off getting a runed wrist guard for a permanent +5 mana regen.
Even if it's reduced to +15 mana regen, and fixed. Either that, or make the spell like the large silvery cross, where it's unlimited casts, but costs mana.

[Greater]

I dont entirely agree with warlock only spells, or gypsy only for that matter... Ultimately a warlock is a branch of the mage spellcraft line... Therefore I dont believe there should ever be a warlock/gypsy spell that a mage itself cannot cast. It just makes sense.
I would apply that theory to any priestly lines also.  I see no reason they should branch away from the mage line.

If everything has to trickle down from Mage 3, it makes it a little more difficult and limiting. That being said, I could see mages getting all the spell examples I posted with the exception of the Warlock only version of freedom. I could NOT see Gypsies getting all of those spells.

At some point players have to ask themselves this: Do I want the classes as they've existed for 25 years, or would some changes to make each class valuable in its own way be proper? We can play old fashioned MajorMUD where all the spells trickle down from the level 3 magic class and without Spell Mod essentially whenever we want. We all know how it's 'supposed' to be. That doesn't mean it has to stay that way indefinitely.

As for me, I'm up for trying some new stuff to keep it interesting and exciting. I would rather see some special stuff given to classes that need a boost and need to find a niche than to play within the same old limitations we've had for 25 years plus.

[cytrik]

I understand where you're coming from... But improvements can be made without re-creating classes.
If you start delving into making each class more unique to push away from the mage-3 tiers, you start moving away from the core of why alot of people play the game. I realise changes/improvements need to be made but giving each class their own spells seems like over complicating it all.
As I see it ultimately a warlock is a warrior mage. That is a character that is adept at fighting, with mage spells to bolster this.
A mage is a specialised character that has the knowledge to learn the entire line of mage spells culminating in the top tier spells.
To create a spell that is meant to be along the mage spell line, but then to say a mage cannot learn it makes 0 sense to me.

Honestly the way I see it the warlock should be the mage equivalent of a paladin, lesser spells, more combat.
And the gypsy should be more like a missy, better at spells, because of the poorer combat.

I know it's been stated before that they dont want to move warlocks into combat-4, but this is more the zone I see them in. Up the exp table to match if that's the case. A combat-4 mag-1 chainmail wearing warlock..  But honestly you could keep them mag-2 as the only extra spells they get are mete, dfir and colu.
They do need better shields though.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

Currently discussing additional off-hand items for warlocks, such as main-gauches, etc.  We'll probably be adding some additional items to the game not specifically for warlocks, but usable by them.  It's pretty unanimous that we don't want to add additional spells to the game, nor create spells for non-mag3 classes.  Keep in mind that we're working on the dats for the PVE realm only at this time, and possible future changes to the PVP realm may include some of these ideas mentioned here. 

[Greater]

I understand where you're coming from... But improvements can be made without re-creating classes.
If you start delving into making each class more unique to push away from the mage-3 tiers, you start moving away from the core of why alot of people play the game. I realise changes/improvements need to be made but giving each class their own spells seems like over complicating it all.
As I see it ultimately a warlock is a warrior mage. That is a character that is adept at fighting, with mage spells to bolster this.
A mage is a specialised character that has the knowledge to learn the entire line of mage spells culminating in the top tier spells.
To create a spell that is meant to be along the mage spell line, but then to say a mage cannot learn it makes 0 sense to me.

Honestly the way I see it the warlock should be the mage equivalent of a paladin, lesser spells, more combat.
And the gypsy should be more like a missy, better at spells, because of the poorer combat.

I know it's been stated before that they dont want to move warlocks into combat-4, but this is more the zone I see them in. Up the exp table to match if that's the case. A combat-4 mag-1 chainmail wearing warlock..  But honestly you could keep them mag-2 as the only extra spells they get are mete, dfir and colu.
They do need better shields though.

I understand your viewpoint. We can agree to disagree on the spells and that's cool with me. I'd also like to clarify here that I don't think Warlocks suck as is. I also don't think they are correctly played by many or even most people. That being said, they aren't the most exciting class on the list, and that's why I think they need a little love.

As far as combat 4, Warlocks are essentially already combat 4 when you figure in their bless spells like smit, fren, and sped. Making them 4 would have them ending up closer to 5 with all the bless spells.

Just to clarify, a past update done by Deathcow mades glacial blades and barbed tentacles both Mage 2. These help fill out their mid-level casting ability quite well.

[cytrik]

Frenzy, smite and speed combined do give a fair advantage, but so does zeal and prowess on combat 4...
The difference being, warlock can still only swing a 1-h weapon, where as ranger and paladin can swing anything.
Not trying to argue, just pointing out the way I see it.
I don't know what everyone else would like to get out of warlocks, but I would love a combat class, with mage spells to stack up against ranger and paladin.
You won't match them for versatility due to not having heals and only having 1-h, but I think it would be a great option.
The other thing is if you were to convert death-touch to a bless/curse spell and not an attack spell, it would create all kinds of extra appeal.

I love the idea of the spell, but it's hard to use as you can't really script with it as the damage is low and the mana is fairly high.
Placing it as a bless/curse type spell would be great.
Wether this is overpowered I don't know, but I like the sound of it.