Menu option at log in for project info

[The Crazy Animal]

I've been noticing more and more drop by people coming to the test server to get info on what exactly greatermud is going to be.

Most of them ask fairly standard questions:
1. What is this mud about?
2. What is different about greatermud then majormud?
3. Is greatermud going to have all of majormuds content?
4. What is the licensing is there going to be?
5. Will you be able to add your own content to greatermud (editing)?
6. What does greatermud run on - Does it need worldgroups?
7. Can you use megamud for playing Greatermud?
8. What kind of content is Greatermud going to have?

Thats all of the ones I remember hearing.

[ghaleon]

Most of them ask fairly standard questions:
1. What is this mud about? a game thats going to pickup where majormud left off
2. What is different about greatermud then majormud? content
3. Is greatermud going to have all of majormuds content? yes, at least until initial release
4. What is the licensing is there going to be? there arent plans on distributing greatermud
5. Will you be able to add your own content to greatermud (editing)? there will only be one server running greatermud, no
6. What does greatermud run on - Does it need worldgroups? no
7. Can you use megamud for playing Greatermud? thats the plan
8. What kind of content is Greatermud going to have? ask deathcow, its his content.

[DeathCow]

8. What kind of content is Greatermud going to have? ask deathcow, its his content.

Oh how I'd love it if coding was far enough along so I could get the burden of that question off me.  And where I like the content I've made I wish there was someone else working with me from time to time.  Its one thing to have final say on what gets put in, its another thing all together to imagine a whole presistant universe for people to interact in then create it in your spare time on your laptop.  It be nice to have some input on whats hot, and whats not.  But I guess thats to come.

[Vitoc]

8. What kind of content is Greatermud going to have? ask deathcow, its his content.

Oh how I'd love it if coding was far enough along so I could get the burden of that question off me.? And where I like the content I've made I wish there was someone else working with me from time to time.? Its one thing to have final say on what gets put in, its another thing all together to imagine a whole presistant universe for people to interact in then create it in your spare time on your laptop.? It be nice to have some input on whats hot, and whats not.? But I guess thats to come.

I realize I've put you in an awkward position DC.? Believe me, I know you want to get your content running so people can see what you've got so far and so you can start getting some feedback.? I have two main concerns:

First and foremost, I'd like to get all of the features (or most of them anyway) working and work out all the little kinks using content we know and understand before everyone starts testing in new and unfamiliar content.? Yes, we could have your content up today, but currently the only person who knows what, when, and where things are supposed to work in that content is you.

Secondly, from what I understand, you have about the first 10 level's worth of content. Personally, I can't wait to see it and I know you've put a lot of time into it, but it will take people all of what, 2-3 days to get to level 10+?? I don't think we want people blowing through that content in 2-3 days and then getting burned out in your content, perhaps months before the next section of content is completed.? I believe it would be better if we had a small team of dedicated testers, that is people who are completely dedicated to structured testing and don't give a rat's ass about character progression, and had them doing some well-planned preliminary testing in this content.? I know this won't be popular with everyone, but trying to do controlled testing with 15 people who aren't there strictly to do organized testing can be chaotic.? I'm willing to set up a second realm for this purpose; having a small group of people to put it through it's paces.? After we get the engine completed, and get any bugs in your new content worked out and make sure things are balanced, we will reset that realm and let everyone log in.? Whacha think?

[DeathCow]

First and foremost, I'd like to get all of the features (or most of them anyway) working and work out all the little kinks using content we know and understand before everyone starts testing in new and unfamiliar content.  Yes, we could have your content up today, but currently the only person who knows what, when, and where things are supposed to work in that content is you.

Oh no, I do understand completely.  And agree.  There is no point in having someone test content since the majority of it cant even be accessed yet.  It would be one thing if everyone that was testing understood the mechanics of the system.  But clearly not everyone does...thus the constant questions about why XYZ lever doesnt work.

Secondly, from what I understand, you have about the first 10 level's worth of content.

I'm working on 30 levels worth.

Personally, I can't wait to see it and I know you've put a lot of time into it, but it will take people all of what, 2-3 days to get to level 10+?  I don't think we want people blowing through that content in 2-3 days and then getting burned out in your content, perhaps months before the next section of content is completed.  I believe it would be better if we had a small team of dedicated testers, that is people who are completely dedicated to structured testing and don't give a rat's ass about character progression, and had them doing some well-planned preliminary testing in this content.  I know this won't be popular with everyone, but trying to do controlled testing with 15 people who aren't there strictly to do organized testing can be chaotic.  I'm willing to set up a second realm for this purpose; having a small group of people to put it through it's paces.  After we get the engine completed, and get any bugs in your new content worked out and make sure things are balanced, we will reset that realm and let everyone log in.  Whacha think?

Unfortunately beta testing this realm wont be as simple as testing a mod for metro.  I wish I could express the full-out hugeness of it all.  And in fact I think I'll try to do that now.

In my current vision of the level 1-30 content.  All characters will start out in a small village located roughly in the dead center of the map.  Content in this area provides roughly levels 1-5, and some content for players who either make it back later, or remain here for an extended time..ie 6-10.  This smaller area is cut off from the rest of the realm via normal travel means, by mountain, a river, and a dense swamp.  From this town players will have the option to leave at anytime by means of a Griffon Stable.  The NPC in control of the stable offers one way passage to locations based on CLASS, and ALIGNMENT. 

Each town in the world has a couple classes(same alignment) that are assigned to it.  In these town many of the possible quests for that character will be started.  Now if you can imagine and overworld with about 1 1/2 dozen silvermeres thats where we are at.  The basic outline of the world allows for each town to have areas around it for level 1-30 characters.  So what we have no is a giant area with many many areas to script, and explore.  And possibly hundreds of unique monsters, and literally 78 pages of NPC text.

Now, maybe I'm working backwords but I'd like to give you the scheme of the world.  Basically we are talking about a flat world.  The top side of the world is divided into 4 quadrants.  quadrant 1 and 3, order..1 being the evil quadrant, 3 being the good quadrant...quadrants 2 and 4 are chaos, or neutrality.  This plane of the world has content for levels 1-20 as well as dozens of dungeons, towers, and portals that can only be accessed by higher level people.  Above this side of the world is a cloud world (ala clouds of xeen).  This area provides content designed for level 20-30+ people and is potentially the same size as the world below it, I'll just need to be alot more creative here as

You're On a Freakin Cloud
Also here: cloud, cloud monkey.

would tend to become boring if it was 25,000 rooms.  This area has the benefit of direct travel and is a kinda sorta black wasteland/NPP portal do dad.  It will provide quick access to scripting areas for character big enough to transverse it.  It should, match up to the world below, if I am very careful in my counting of rooms.

Below the flat plane is the other side of the world.  Which can be access initailly by traveling through a volcano (Which i want to call guro, alas I cannot)  The other side of the world is ment for High level content, and I havent done much planning for it yet, Other than placing quests in the area.

My intention is to have the first side of the planet <without quests> completed by the time you're ready to add content. 

[Demitrius]

I believe it would be better if we had a small team of dedicated testers, that is people who are completely dedicated to structured testing and don't give a rat's ass about character progression, and had them doing some well-planned preliminary testing in this content.  I know this won't be popular with everyone, but trying to do controlled testing with 15 people who aren't there strictly to do organized testing can be chaotic.  I'm willing to set up a second realm for this purpose; having a small group of people to put it through it's paces.  After we get the engine completed, and get any bugs in your new content worked out and make sure things are balanced, we will reset that realm and let everyone log in.  Whacha think?

:raisehand:
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Oo! Oo! Me! Me!

This post is going to assume that greatermud is, for the most part, still in its alpha stages, maybe early beta.  I say this because the (new) content hasn't been added, although the game looks pretty good.  Perhaps a system could be worked out where this second realm would be a strictly test server.  You could implement bug fixes (accuracy, spellcasting... whatever) as you go in the main realm and test realm but in terms of whats in the test realm its all the new content, none of the old. The plan is for the game to be run on the same engine as MajorMud but to look different right?  I would love to spend time exploring new areas and testing quests specifically for the purpose of testing it out, not blazing through it.  Hell, I think keeping the design process open for everyone to see is great, but if people are treating the game as it is as majormud and doing their scripting thing and all that and not really contributing, well that doesn't help you guys at all.  An environment for strictly testing is a great idea.


If you plan on doing something like this, please let me know.

-D

[ghaleon]

I have some issues I would like to get sorted out before I am to sit down and create all the spells I would like to. I dont know if maybe vitoc or DC could answer some of these but here they are:

1) Beta testing. I personally want only a handful of personally selected folks by either DC, vitoc and myself to be beta testers in the new realm. For one, I would like to keep a bit of mystery in the game as to how spells work, what they look like, or even how to get them. I think that mystery is important to a mud. I personally wouldnt want my content being posted like metro's was right off the bat. I want to build up anticipation similiar to how I felt when I first played majormud, not knowing what the next spell would be like.

2) Leveling. I dont want the leveling to be as out of control like it was in majormud and im sure you dont either. It takes time to create all this content, and the last thing i would want is for it to be like majormud where a player can script for a day and be level 10. I know DC didnt spend all this time to have his areas blown through in a day, and I certainly wouldnt want to spend all this time on spells.

I think those are my two biggest issues with getting started on creating this content, other than the sorting out who and how many GM or mudops we are going to have in the game. This would be something I would like to get in order as well because I wouldnt like to see this place turn into another lunar (no offense invisigod if you read this hehe). I think a secure forum visible to only mudops would be a good idea as well.

Let me know if you guys would be interested in sitting down one day on a chat or even IM and get some things settled.

[The Crazy Animal]

1) Beta testing. I personally want only a handful of personally selected folks by either DC, vitoc and myself to be beta testers in the new realm. For one, I would like to keep a bit of mystery in the game as to how spells work, what they look like, or even how to get them. I think that mystery is important to a mud. I personally wouldnt want my content being posted like metro's was right off the bat. I want to build up anticipation similiar to how I felt when I first played majormud, not knowing what the next spell would be like.

I think that if we go the high anticipation root we will be going down the same self-destructive path that majormud did. High anticipation is a step away from disapointment we all know how good metro was for setting up disapointments. If you want to see the content design info you should be able to. If a person doesn't want to see it they should be able to not see it. The best way I can see this working is just by having a few more forum groups and letting people ask for the right to see any additional information. The people that can then see the content design areas would just be asked to keep that info as their eyes only or loose that permission. This way everyone is happy no bridges get burnt and in the end we can all enjoy working together on this project.

2) Leveling. I dont want the leveling to be as out of control like it was in majormud and im sure you dont either. It takes time to create all this content, and the last thing i would want is for it to be like majormud where a player can script for a day and be level 10. I know DC didnt spend all this time to have his areas blown through in a day, and I certainly wouldnt want to spend all this time on spells.

This is a scripting issue it will be there till no one scripts. Majormud survived on scripting and no one really has time play with out scripting this is the nature of the problem. The problem that it causes is power leveling there are lots aways around power leveling but the most simple ways to do so are caustic to the type of gameplay that mmud was so loved for. I have an idea how to solve this power leveling with out diminishing gameplay but it would not be an easy task to get it working perfectly. I'll post about it later in the idea forum.

[proteus]

1. I disagree, if I'm reading you right. Content design should not be available to everyone, that IS what ruined the game for Metro. Once info becomes even remotely public, it's public for good, and unless you're willing to spend a huge amount of trust that anyone who sees it will keep it eyes only, making it public to the wrong person will be like handing it to the world. Not to mention we're not exactly in a position right now to even try to enforce that, legally.

2. Content secrecy will slow scripting. Scripting was greatly aided by all the info that Metro put out there, and the fact that people could actually make paths and maps before a module was even widely released, or sometimes before it was even out of beta-testing. I'd imagine there are some people who have some paths/maps for Mod 10 out there... Anyway, keeping the lid on things will slow that, and encourage more people to actually play the game.

It's also a good thing that there's going to be, at the start, only one GMUD. Possibly forever, who knows?

Anyway, my hand is feeling better lately, and I've been able to actually type without pain, so hopefully I can get my own content done more this weekend.

[ghaleon]

There will always be players who post information they learn on their own websites, but "I" personally think that you shouldnt make it readily available to them before they are even started. Game experience should make the player better, not how much they cant study the data.

I also dont believe scripting created whats going on with majormud now-a-days... I think that the AC changes and several other overpowering changes created the fast lvling issues majormud has. I can easily be taimed by making things harder for the players. I'm sure the players would much rather become lvl 50 in a week, but that doesnt mean thats the way it should be. IF thats the case, the players will become bored fast. The more work the players put into their character, the more they will want to play, and continue to play.

[Ian]

I've been noticing more and more drop by people coming to the test server to get info on what exactly greatermud is going to be.

Most of them ask fairly standard questions:
1. What is this mud about?
2. What is different about greatermud then majormud?
3. Is greatermud going to have all of majormuds content?
4. What is the licensing is there going to be?
5. Will you be able to add your own content to greatermud (editing)?
6. What does greatermud run on - Does it need worldgroups?
7. Can you use megamud for playing Greatermud?
8. What kind of content is Greatermud going to have?

Thats all of the ones I remember hearing.

How long has this been going on/when did it start

[The Crazy Animal]

1. I disagree, if I'm reading you right. Content design should not be available to everyone, that IS what ruined the game for Metro. Once info becomes even remotely public, it's public for good, and unless you're willing to spend a huge amount of trust that anyone who sees it will keep it eyes only, making it public to the wrong person will be like handing it to the world. Not to mention we're not exactly in a position right now to even try to enforce that, legally.

Well I'm not sure how your reading me so I'll type some more. Don't get me started about how Metro ruined mmud. The only portion of the game that needs to be kept secret is the actual game engine development that's the only portion that is really worth anything right now (no offence DC or anyone else helping) it is this way because we don't have any idea if the content will be worth playing yet. However the biggest thing that will slow down the proving out of content is being overly secret about it.

Second It wouldn't be good for the projects image that only after the beta you finally let people see it and and found that lots of people had major problems with large protions of content. If we can get past that pre-beta then it would be great as that type of situation would kill off a large amount of the support and faith that people have given to this project already.

I for one would love to see the packaged content be as good as it can be and illustrate numerous methods of game-play and content design as well as including editing demos on how some things are coded in. However it is impossible to do that unless the people who want to help are allowed to see the content and know how it works. I'm not saying it should be made fully public but rather have a open door type policy on how people can get to see it provided they have shown that they want to help.

2. Content secrecy will slow scripting. Scripting was greatly aided by all the info that Metro put out there, and the fact that people could actually make paths and maps before a module was even widely released, or sometimes before it was even out of beta-testing. I'd imagine there are some people who have some paths/maps for Mod 10 out there... Anyway, keeping the lid on things will slow that, and encourage more people to actually play the game.

Back when people wrote their own scripts from scratch this might have been true but how many people do that anymore. We are in a megamud generation the ability to make a path or a script takes less time then it does to cook a real dinner or maybe even make a simple sandwich. Slowing scripting by itself will not remove the problem of power leveling. Fixing the problem of power leveling is going to take a hard coded method directed at what scripting does. I'll probably post on this very soon I just have some of my other work that need to be finished first.

[Locke Cole]

How long has this been going on/when did it start

Nobody responded to this, so figure I'd fill in this little bit with what I know. Vitoc originally made a posting at my forums asking for opinions about a new MUD based largely off of MajorMUD. You can see that discussion here:

http://llt.biz/om/viewtopic.php?t=610

(And no doubt once those forums go away, the info should be at archive.org; I don't plan on renewing hosting when the plan expires later this year).

The actual post by Vitoc was at Apr 14 2005 02:43 pm. DeathCow asked for info on contacting Vitoc on Nov 02 2005 (again, see the thread above), after which I assume they began developing the game at a quicker pace. I didn't get involved with this until May of this year (I didn't even know about it really), but from reading the forums here it looks like beta testing began in December and progressed quickly through January. There was some fall-off in activity until more recently, and now development appears to be back in full swing.

As a side note, this should probably be moved off to the Wiki as an historical article (maybe "History of GreaterMUD"). If there are any blanks that can be filled in (anyone who contributed in a critical manner or helped in a significant way, any dates which were significant, or so forth), we might be able to put together a timeline for the article too.

[Ian]

How long has this been going on/when did it start

Nobody responded to this, so figure I'd fill in this little bit with what I know. Vitoc originally made a posting at my forums asking for opinions about a new MUD based largely off of MajorMUD. You can see that discussion here:

http://llt.biz/om/viewtopic.php?t=610

(And no doubt once those forums go away, the info should be at archive.org; I don't plan on renewing hosting when the plan expires later this year).

The actual post by Vitoc was at Apr 14 2005 02:43 pm. DeathCow asked for info on contacting Vitoc on Nov 02 2005 (again, see the thread above), after which I assume they began developing the game at a quicker pace. I didn't get involved with this until May of this year (I didn't even know about it really), but from reading the forums here it looks like beta testing began in December and progressed quickly through January. There was some fall-off in activity until more recently, and now development appears to be back in full swing.

As a side note, this should probably be moved off to the Wiki as an historical article (maybe "History of GreaterMUD"). If there are any blanks that can be filled in (anyone who contributed in a critical manner or helped in a significant way, any dates which were significant, or so forth), we might be able to put together a timeline for the article too.

Actually Locke I meant that that was another frequently asked question when n00bs came to the realm, and it should be added to the menu option that this post was originally about.? But it's still good to have that info down in writing somewhere.? I still believe we should implement an info page on the board, answering those questions.

[Locke Cole]

Actually Locke I meant that that was another frequently asked question when n00bs came to the realm, and it should be added to the menu option that this post was originally about.  But it's still good to have that info down in writing somewhere.  I still believe we should implement an info page on the board, answering those questions.

I wasn't implying you didn't know. :P I was just answering with what I knew of how GMUD came to be so others could fill in any blanks before we put something on the wiki.