The Inquisition: (what to do with Witchunters) modified to remove smileys*

[The Crazy Animal]

Warning this is long but I thinks it?s a really good way to revamp the idea of witchunters in the game.

Class Concept:
I thought it was about time to try a different take on the role of the witch hunter and basically setting them up as a fundamentalist sect that could share some of the characteristics of the priestly group but at the same time remaining unique to the game.

The inquisition?s group of characters have a power called faith that works similar to how a mystic?s kai does in its small point total and low regen rate. I was thinking a Charm and Wisdom base rather then working like non-stat based kai because it?s more of a folkish backwoods preacher type of ability dependant on the characters ability to both know and express their beliefs.

While staying true to the no magical items restriction that mmud had placed on them I think it would be an interesting idea to give them a special group of items called relics. The relics would have some magic like abilities however they would have no value to classes out side of inquisition groups of characters and stay heavily themed based on the power concept and limitations of the abilities presented in the faith power.

Getting back to the class concept there are really 3 sides to come out of this group each with their own slant to things.

*- Base Class
**Good branch base class - (Early Alignment quest)
*** (Light) Specialization 1 - (mid game power quest)
**** Prestige - (late game prestige quest)
*** (Medium) Specialization 2 - (mid game power quest)
**** Prestige - (late game prestige quest)
*** (Heavy) Specialization 3 - (mid game power quest)
**** Prestige - (late game prestige quest)
+ Neutral branch base class - (Early Alignment quest)
+ Evil branch base class - (Early Alignment quest)

The first alignment quest effects how their faith is able to be manifested as well as the types of class quests they get. It also affects the types of classes they can become later in the game. Somewhere in this mix the witch hunter class will be placed. Each of alignment divisions there should be a Light, Medium, Heavy armored specialization so that the story arc can be played out efficiently with any racial attributes. I?ll get back to describing the individual classes later.

Inquisition group Identity: (Alignment Views)

On the good side:
Those on the good side of this group recognize that the world has problems however they blame these problems on not evil acts themselves but on the tools of those committing the acts. They ignore the fact that magic exits in the realm for any intentions use and fully believe that any one that uses is it is helping bring evil into the world. By removing magic from the realm the world would not be tempted by its power anymore and will in turn find salvation in its absence.

Word view:
?Brothers of the one true path, the realm overflows with evil from the merciless pestilence of the walking corpses to those diabolical demon worshipping wizards who steal and consume the flesh of our children. Let us take up arms against these devilish beasts and those regents of the undead that corrupt our lands. Let us lay waste to their dark cabals, burn them out of their dusty mausoleums and dank catacombs. May we; deliver on to those of that appalling and most unpardonable dark path; death, by the wrath of our most holy and avenging blades.?

On the neutral side:
Those on the neutral side of this realize that the realm is many shades of grey. They have seen both good and bad uses of magic and realize that many denizens of the realm rely on it to survive. Due to this they must temper their behavior or be made out as scapegoats to mask the infidels from the reproductions of their malevolent actions.

World view:
?Brothers of the path you are to the right and left of me. The realm in all of its wickedness has entered a time of great lamentation at the hands of the infidels. Yet your actions only increase the suffering of the people let us not replace one oppressor with another. While I agree there is much blood of the wicked to be spilt, I can not agree with the means of your methods. We must be cautious in bringing the wickedness of these despots to the light of the people less we make martyrs of them all.?

On the evil side:
Those on the evil side of this group believe the world is evil, many, many levels of evil and there is no use in trying to save any of the wicked people. If you find a wicked person you kill them and if you find someone who is good you subjugate them or soon enough they will be evil too and then you?ll have to come back and kill them later. The world will not be safe until everyone sees and does things your way.

World View:
?Brothers of the one true way, the world has turned into vile cesspit of iniquity. The divine one in it?s in inexorable glory gave us dominion over all things in this world. We shall use anything we see fit to rein in a new order, our order, and spread our holy theocracy across the face of the realm. The correct path is at hand and with that the wicked shall fall and we shall raise up the good in our own image.?

The ensuing power struggle:
All of three of these groups exist within the same organization however none of the power divisions quite agree on anything other then there are things that need to be done in order to bring the world out of its current state of wickedness. Each of the three sects is basically trying to push their agenda and their people to the top so they can control way the rest of the group acts.

Group power structure:

The Hierophant: The divine leader of the one true way. ?Note - the group really does need a better name then the one true way?? Note - Hierophant name needs to be replaced too...

Divine Synod:
The Divine synod is a holy council that governs over the ecumenical matters of the one true way. This council consists of high ranking clergy and lay members elected from each of the regional branch districts.

Imperial Tribunal:
The Imperial Tribunal is the militant wing of the group under the control of the Divine Synod that handles matters of enforcement of heresy. There are four branches of the Imperial Tribunal: Eastern, Western, Northern, and Southern. Each of these controls their own local Temple complexes. Members of the Imperial Tribunal can be found in any of the main Temple complexes in the corridor marked ?The Holy Office of Inquisition into Heretical Wickedness?. Where else would you expect to be asked the question, ?Do you wish to file an inquiry concerning heretical depravity?? with no less then a smile on the clerks face to boot.

Ranking NPC member titles: ?these are in rank order?
District Master: ?one in each branch?
Marshal
Under Marshal

Chantry Synod:
The Chantry Synods are small local council groups under the command of the regional Imperial Tribunal branches. They hand down theocratic edicts and pass judgment on suspected heretics in more rural areas. The judgments are then handed out to individual or groups of inquisition members to enforce. They can be found in lightly fortified shrines across the realm. Each Chantry Synod is headed by a Provincial Master that has a small number of subordinate initiates under their direct control.

NPC classes that can be found around their temples:
Hospitaler ? non-magical healer
Draper ? Head Tailor.
Demonologist
Devotee, Laymen ? your average joe of the order
Canon master ? head keeper of laws, rites?




Class Structure: ?note anything with ????? needs a name.?

??? ? starting class
HP/LvL: 4 ? 7
Weapons: 1-handed
Combat: 3
Armour: Chainmail
Magic: Faith 1
Abilities: Anti-Magic Aura*, No magic Items*

*notes: (these two things would be core abilities in the group)
1) I?d really like some type of functioning Anti magic aura to replace the +MR with. Something that can boost the player?s difficulty to be targeted by non-faith oriented magic types rather then functioning at the resist level for all magic types.
2) Read the relic part for acceptable use of special items.

Good:
* - ??? - branch base
** ??? ? Light
*** ???
** Vampyre Hunter ? Medium (should have tracking, stealth, picklocks, Traps)
*** ??? - possibly story line based with no standard class change. join an order of hunters.
** Crusader ? Heavy ?similar to Paladin or Cleric?
*** Templar
Neutral:
* - ??? - branch base
** Exorcist ? Light
*** Exalted Purifier
** Infiltrator ? Medium (should have stealth, picklocks, traps)
*** Divine Seeker
** Ardent Judicator ? Heavy
*** Divine Champion
Evil:
* ??? - branch base
** Inquisitor ? light
*** Grand Inquisitor
** Witch Hunter ? Medium (should have tracking, boosted anti-magic aura, maybe stealth)
*** Demon Slayer
** Redguard Enforcer ? Heavy
*** Redguard Dreadnaught

Note: The names really need a bit of work.

Power Concept for Faith:

The concept of their curses are intended to mostly effect spell casters in negative way from cutting off their mana supply or negating spells to altering the spell difficulty of the targeted player. The blessings on the other hand are mostly combat buffs, protection spells or regenerative healing spells for their own use. The bulk of their attack spells are to geared toward undead/demonic targets however a few are available for living targets.

Some faith manifestation Examples:

Circle of Salt:
The user of this faith ability alters the difficulty for another player to be able to hit the player using this manifestation.
Blessed Water:
The user of this ability can turn a container of water into a container of holy water which may then be used to damage certain unholy/demonic monsters or players.
Divine Benediction:
Prev-Evil/Combat buff
Martyrs Prayer:
Increases MIN/MAX DMG, - HP regen
Angelic Disruption:
Similar effects to circle of salt but at a party level.
Exalted banishment:
Turn undead type spell
Sermon of Purification:
Area turn undead type spell
Witch hammer:
Damage Spell
Mark of Heresy:
Target: -spell casting, -mana regen
Exorcism:
Causes damage on demonic creatures ? Requires a Demon flag similar to undead, should also work on undead though.
Mark of Sacrilege:
DOT: Causes target to lose a number of mana points per round.
Mage Bind:
Disallows the last spell cast by target to succeed if cast again for a short duration. Stacks for each successive spell cast until effect wears off.
Spell Break:
Spell Break targets a single spell that has been cast on a player and attempts to dispel it. With the exception of poison type spells and those marked with non-magical which are unaffected by this.
Sanctifying Touch:
+HP regen, Heal/Tick +X
Litany of Faith:
+MR, +prev evil
Mark of the Damned: (more of a pvp spell, until monsters become track-able)
Extends the number of rooms a PC or NPC is track-able from 20 to 25-40.
Earnest prayer:
+Acc
Litany of justice:
Hold target
Requiem of piety:
+prev evil, +AC/+DR
Holy Conflagration:
Fire Dmg
Shield of faith
Chance spell deflection.

Concept of Relics:
There are two type of relics in the game those that are exceedingly old and unique or limited and those that the player can make by doing special deeds for the order. The relics that the player can make I would really like to carry some type of exp point tally. So when the player does particular things in the game their items get those points. Any non-unique base items they are wearing could gains these points. The player can then take, the items to one of the orders NPC?s to cash the points in for effects. The power rating of the effect can not exceed that of the min level field on the item, ?this is for the sake of balance and to keep high level players from super boosting noob items?. The points are also reset if the item comes into the possession of a different player other then the one that originally earned the points.? I?d like to play around with some type of dynamic or custom name field also for this.? I think most of the effects should be in the form of temp spells but maybe some could be regular item booster abilities.

Holy Relics: ?Some sample effects for the items?
Divine Aversion:
Causes a reaction (message) when cast on possessed or otherwise unholy targets.
Exsufflation:
The causes a holy wind to make unseen spirits/entities visible in haunted areas.
Radiant holy light:
Cause damage to undead
(And of course anything that goes along with the main theme of faith.)

I have a few other odds and ends I?m working on for this idea but I think I?ll wait to see if anyone likes it first

[The Crazy Animal]

I always forget about the stupid smilies. Ty DC..

So anyone got any feedback? or class names hehe

[Colt]

I always forget about the stupid smilies. Ty DC..

So anyone got any feedback? or class names hehe

Man.... YOu put a lot of thought into that.

[Mukami]

I think the witchunter class will mostly balance its self out with all the other changes. Honestly i think they were a great concept and giving them a special anti-magic magic just seems a little backwards.

The concept as it stands seems solid. People so opposed to the use of magic that they have dedicated their lives to hunting the people who use it. And they are so stuborn in their thinking that they refuse the help of any magic. They wear the lighter armor because the people they target they can use their mental (magic resistance) armor against. Only thing i didnt get is why they are better fighters than warriors. That could be because of how cult like they are so that they are trained from birth how to use their weapons where a warrior could have spent most of his time growing up as a farmer and then worked to become a warrior.

[The Crazy Animal]

I think the witchunter class will mostly balance its self out with all the other changes.

They are way to broken at the moment to self-balance.

Honestly i think they were a great concept and giving them a special anti-magic magic just seems a little backwards.

You need to not think of it as magic and more like the will of their deity flowing through them. In this light they are similar to priests however they are bound more closely to a specific deity from the start of the game. The focus of this power though would be specifically anti-magic.

The concept as it stands seems solid. People so opposed to the use of magic that they have dedicated their lives to hunting the people who use it. And they are so stuborn in their thinking that they refuse the help of any magic.

If you were to actually RPG a witchunter you would only be able to nicely interact with warriors, thieves, ninjas, and other witchunters this makes very little sense in a game that attempts to get people to play together. Simply the class needs to fit with in the context of the game. The distinction with the new context is that they have a much more alignment based view on other magical systems and recognize things that they hold as spiritually/morally correct.

They wear the lighter armor because the people they target they can use their mental (magic resistance) armor against. Only thing i didnt get is why they are better fighters than warriors.

The mmud helpfiles clearly state that they wear it do the complexity of their fighting style. Hence why they are combat 5 rather then 4.

That could be because of how cult like they are so that they are trained from birth how to use their weapons where a warrior could have spent most of his time growing up as a farmer and then worked to become a warrior.

They mention trained from birth to over emphasize their elite-ness within the warrior cast as a whole. This however doesn?t not mean though that a warrior would have been a simple farmer prior to picking up a sword. In mmud the warrior class was the equivalent of a knight and would have had specialized training starting from a very young age as well hence why they attain a combat rating of 4 rather then 3 like a cleric who spends much of their time learning other skills.   

[shattergod]

Is not the "Will of their Deity" another form of magic?

The Witchunter Class should be the pinnacle of non-magical human development. They're faster, smarter, meaner, tougher and stronger than anyone else. Period. They can match wits with any mage, they can armwrestle any warrior, they deftly dodge as well as any thief.

Really, your best bet is to give Witchunters kai like abilities. Call their mana "Focus" and use these abilities as a means to balance the Witchunter.

For example at level 1 the Witchunter might get Sublime Rage... which increases their damage and accuracy for a set number of rounds. This becomes a balancing factor because it allows the developers to look at what the witchunter can do and balance these powers around it.

Another ability might be "Suppress Aura" which voluntarily decreases the Witchunters resistance to magic (useful in parties).

And so forth.

[The Crazy Animal]

Is not the "Will of their Deity" another form of magic?

It really depends on how you want to look at it. To one person magic could be almost anything. To another person it might have specific requirements. I was looking at this in light of say white wolf?s hunters hunted... and the power of faith.. So they wouldn't get mana or kai but they would have a faith point tally.

The Witchunter Class should be the pinnacle of non-magical human development. They're faster, smarter, meaner, tougher and stronger than anyone else. Period. They can match wits with any mage, they can armwrestle any warrior, they deftly dodge as well as any thief.

Your missing the point here it would not just be witchunters anymore. There would be a range of classes in this group not just a fighter class. The larger structural group is something abstractly modeled after a mishmash of historical content blended from the Crusading order of the Knights Templar to the inquisitional period of Christianity. So they would have a full class grouping similar to how clerics are part of the overall priest group. The other thing this covers is the foundation giving reason to why they dislike magic in the first place. I.e. to give credence to their cause?.

Really, your best bet is to give Witchunters kai like abilities. Call their mana "Focus" and use these abilities as a means to balance the Witchunter.

Already covered this it would be called faith. To quote myself:

The inquisition?s group of characters have a power called faith that works similar to how a mystic?s kai does in its small point total and low regen rate. I was thinking a Charm and Wisdom base rather then working like non-stat based kai because it?s more of a folkish backwoods preacher type of ability dependant on the characters ability to both know and express their beliefs.

(Note - I know I slip and call their abilities spells a few times but that?s simply because most game effects are either textblocks or spells.)

For example at level 1 the Witchunter might get Sublime Rage... which increases their damage and accuracy for a set number of rounds. This becomes a balancing factor because it allows the developers to look at what the witchunter can do and balance these powers around it.

Did you really read what I posted????

Another ability might be "Suppress Aura" which voluntarily decreases the Witchunters resistance to magic (useful in parties).

And so forth.

Why would someone with a hatred of magic want to have magic cast on them? Having faith abilities by pass their anti magic aura is one thing but not all magic.

[DeathCow]

Oh crap do I have to read all this.....sigh, I'll be back later when I feel more like caring.

[The Crazy Animal]

Oh crap do I have to read all this.....sigh, I'll be back later when I feel more like caring.

Hehe, it's not that long...

[El_Jefe]

I read most of that.  I enjoyed the spirit parts.  I will read it again in full tomorrow.

You are headed in the right direction, but one point, the mana/kai thing, is all out wrong.

I have to say that I have had the oldest, longest running whunter out of anyone in muds existence.  I ran the fucker well over 9 years.  It could be 11 years.  I am not sure.   I was one of the top 10 whunters for a couple of years and then the top 13th whunter for long time after that, when mud was going super strong still.   I love the class and I loved my guy.   ( some would doubt that my guy is the oldest, some would doubt that he also was the first neko whunter, but fuck them)

ElJefe

Yup, thats me, thats my guy.  A goblin whunter at first.  He was a nice asset and did well at pvp against people that misjudged his abilities.  Then, the race change occured.  He became a nekojin.  He had sick assed combat.  I mean, like an kang warrior in this version with smga would have cried at his power back then.  Criting like... he critted nonstop.  Spells hurt him more than they should but not so bad.

then things changed bigtime and crits were capped, agility was whittled away, then in modern times strength was the master.

Strength does not increase accuracy.  I never ever knew of someone who was more accurate based upon their strength.  I am quite strong, exceedingly strong for my size and weight when I work at it.  I am not accurate with an axe.  I can drive an axe clean through a huge chunk of wood with much violence, but I miss a lot.  I need more agility.  Agile fighters are normally also lighter.  I'm untrained at axe wielding and just chop wood for my gf to look sexy. 


well, point being or many points are as follows:

1. whunters should get more critical hits
2. whunters should never have any mana or kai forms of spells
3. whunters are anti everything except their ideaology, they are enigmatic and violent
4. whunters should not get more armour than scale, I think that chainmail is good enough if balancing could achieve that
5. warlocks are the opposite of whunters.  they use spells to assist and mutate their fighting skills and need to find magical weapons to gain the edge on a whunter.
6. whunters should always have "hitmagic 5"
7. tank whunters should only have the ability to have more hps and heal faster.  they should not be able to fight better.  They should have more damage resistance as well, the tanks I mean, so DR across the board for them as whunters.
8.  Metro did pretty well with whunters but the engine lacked the ability to adjust a particular classes stats that would translate into growing power through the levels.
9. warriors and whunters have nothing to do with one another and should not be compared. 
10. a whunter should have abilities that align themselves to deities or faiths.  however, not in form of using a kai or mana.  It should be only an ability that is like kick,ju, pu, types of abilities. 
11.  I could see something like mystic forms being used for them.  different battle techniques and styles that would work with different monsters/areas.  some focusing on brute power, others on accurate hits, others on luck shots like crits but more fanaticaly thrown.
12.  spells should have a tough time being cast on them in parties.  yes, this is annoying, but this is a good rpg thing that metro forced.  it does make a whunter a whunter and not just another class.
13.  Obviously, a high level caster should be able to more easily cast effect and healing spells on a whunter but still have some difficulty.  A level 60 archmage helping a level 10 whunter should be able to control the whunter more than they currently can in mud.
14.  Make the names very reigliously orientated and very nonpolitically correct.  Demon Hunter, Inquisitor, Crusader, all are nice names.  Metro did well with this part. 
15.  Make whunters slightly harder to level than they are currently.  there is a lack of weapons for them at the moment., this is why people really dont see them as viable in a big mud. 
16. Whunters should be better than average in pvp
17. whunters should be able to track anyone who uses magic or kai.  thieves, ninjas, warriors, or other whunters should not be able to be tracked.
18.  If they got a 6th swing and no one else did, they would be instantly fixed as they are.  the only thing would be like +1 crits every 10 levels until 30, then +1.5 for 40, 50, 60, 70, that with 6th swing would fix them instantly as it stand in majormud.  there combat 5 would help them get to that swing faster, but their ability to get quick and deadly would be slower as they need to overcome 6 swings for it. 
19. praying to a deity or being a part of a political movement would be options.  like, you go somewhere and it changes you for the day and its liek evil points, you cant shake that alignment for days.  This alignment would effect things like you vs. certain monsters, or in what ways you fight. 

I think that is the way I would like to see this go.  one is abilities like greatermud is saying, different paths.  the other is the choice of personal alignment that goes beyond good or evil.  Evil and good were done well by metro I think so that should also stay.

nite folks

[Ian]

I'm sorry to say TCA I haven't thoroughly read that massive post either.  I have browsed it though.

I certainly like some of the points El_Jefe brought up.  I'm playing a witchie atm, and in certain areas they suck.  I'm lvl 65 and have just got my questor (after having used golden pike).  It's not as fantastic as I'd like.  A lvl 50 Ranger can do SO much more damage than me it's not funny, with a weapon with the same stats.  I have combat-5!
Anyway, I like the sound of a 6th swing, and I've always been saying witchies should get +crits.  most of the other suggestions sound cool, I like the idea of forms.  Tracking via the residual magical aura would be awesome too.

But the bit I always discount when analysing the witchie is the exp chart, and if you were to add all these cool features it might have to be upped.
Anyway, I'm glad something is gonna happen to them

Another point I think witchies need: a role to fulfil.  When was the last time a party was forming and someone said we need a witchie?  They don't even fall into the damage-dealer category, and barely the meatshield category (since they can't heal themselves like paladins and aren't easy to heal like warriors).

[The Crazy Animal]

LOL where should I start: The effects of stats on combat isn?t really a witchunter issue alone it?s a general combat issue and needs to addressed as such so that?s kind of off topic. Same goes for crit caps. You can feel free to open up a topic about that in the balance analysis forum but I think there is already one there.  Weapon skills and battle techniques are also a different subject were in the middle of rethinking how we want that to be done but it will not be limited to just witchunters.



Ok now that that is out of the way this post is concerning an entire class group into which the witchunter would fall into so its not just about witchunters. It for one will help give a little back-story for their content but also make them less of a loner in the game. Secondly the groups? key opposite would not just be warlocks we have a slew of other darker magical classes to which they could/would now be cast against. Two new major groups they will be facing off against would be the necromacers and the pseudo necromancers which contain the following classes: Necromancer, Dark-Chancellor, Dark-Minister, Dread-Knight and Dark-Magus, Dark-Enforcer, Death-Stalker, Plague-dancer. This is in addition to the standard mage group as well as a few others.

As far as deities goes there should only be one deity for them to be aligned with at the moment. As the class grouping needs to appear more organized on that front. Later perhaps if the player base is there for it we could add other groups of in that would use other deities.

Concerning the point tally that they would be getting in this system, it would be called faith, it would not be mana or kai. It would simply be an expression of their fanatical will and their anti-magic aura backed by the power of their belief in their deity. The effects of which could be used for mainly personal defense against magic, along with some minor combat buffs and exorcism type effects. The major feel of this would be that of an exorcist reciting prayers or praying to their deity and having their prayers answered. I?m not sure how to say it any better then that but its not mana or kai they would not be using spells or magic. As for praying I like that but I think it needs to be changeable quicker and could be more effectively governed and balanced as a whole by their faith tally. You should be able to pray anywhere you go however I?m not opposed to giving special stuff for praying in key temples or shrines that might have longer effects.

Secondly to cope with the need for new non-magical weapons so often it would place into their hands relic class items. A relic would fall into two classes something that is a 1 off limited with some type of fitting power think like magebane or any of their MMUD equiv special gear. These types of items would be very theme based and play heavily on the back story of the overall class group. In addition to that there would be a dynamic item that would respond and grow in power as the user does. These items would function in tandem with their faith points to cause effects like spellbreaking to just name one. Just imagine for a second having a black friar standing in front of you who suddenly smacks you atop the head with a rather large holy symbol while shouting off about devils be-gone. Then suddenly your mana starts to leak out (down tick) as the ungodly howls of demons grace the room. The higher the level of the friar the quicker/longer the down tick would last. I have some rather unique ideas for these items but its still be a while till I think it will come to a viable structure as a whole since it will require some db adjustment.

I do like the idea of a magic only tracking but it needs a little more to it then just tracking since tracking is already in the game. Also if you take a look at the class groupings vampire hunters and witch hunters both have tracking in this plan already. Perhaps it could be something that enhances tracking causing you to fail less or even track a magical player/monster further then the existing (I think 20 room) limit.

I don?t agree that they should have a static hitmagic rating either. The rating of their hit magic should be governed by their level or some other component like their overall faith rating since hitmagic 5 is useless against a magic 6 opponent. We really need to focus on fixing the static problems that limited programming forethought caused in the first place.

As for a 6th swing there isn?t enough of a gap between combat 4 and combat 5 for me to look at that as viable. Secondly this would have absolutely no effect on them at lower levels which in my book would leave them still broken for to large a gap in the game.

Ian really is thinking to the point, the key to fixing witchunters right now is to make them viable in PVE and in order to do that they need to be-able to do things like stop a monster from casting spells, create anti-magic barriers, and help protect other players in a group setting. We really need to think more out of the box on this then metro and wcc did. The way they set up the witchunters so severely limited them that it led them to be broken in the first place. I know some of what I posted pushes the limits of our long held beliefs on what a whichunter is but that?s exactly what we need to be doing to fix them. I could go on to as there are lots of neat things we could give them like dodge magic, dynamic level based spell immunity?. However I?d really like to get people thinking in this direction first.

[El_Jefe]

"As for a 6th swing there isn?t enough of a gap between combat 4 and combat 5 for me to look at that as viable. Secondly this would have absolutely no effect on them at lower levels which in my book would leave them still broken for to large a gap in the game."

ew. no way. first off, it wouldnt matter.  2nd off, the game gets better as you get bigger.  3rd off, you could chose a FASTER weapon.  metro's description was a good one, complex attacks, fast too.  so you could gain from a medium speed weapon vs heavy hitter as you will be swinging and contacting more often.

Also, I dont want any spiritual crap with whunters.  I play them because in life, I am anti-magic.  All that faery and "good angel" new age crap, flush it down the toilet and let me get out my club of maiming.

I could see some sort of prayer system but one that is in a "form", in other words, it locks you and changes your style for the day or for like an hour or so.

If it did have alternative effect choices like a form, I would want then there to be no mention of mana pts at all.  no regen needed, just do it whenever.  you can have timers to it, but it wont matter.

I like the hitmagic anything! it makes them USEFUL right NOW in parties!  dont take that away. honest.

[The Crazy Animal]

ew. no way. first off, it wouldnt matter.  2nd off, the game gets better as you get bigger.  3rd off, you could chose a FASTER weapon.  metro's description was a good one, complex attacks, fast too.  so you could gain from a medium speed weapon vs heavy hitter as you will be swinging and contacting more often.

Everything matters especially the start of the game. The start of the game is actually almost more important then the middle of the game in some respects. If someone isn?t happy with the start of the game they usually will not sit through at wait for it to get better. So we need a fix that makes them look viable for the long term to a majority of players. They need to be able to do something that is useful both solo and with in a party. And again as I said before we?re talking about a larger class group there are 9 unique classes in this not including their prestige classes. So it?s not just the classic laymen style fighter class witchunter that we came to know in mmud.

Regardless of their description they are combat 5 and the difference between combat 4 and combat 5 is too small for me to say this one alone should get an extra swing. If they were combat 6 or 7 I might have agreed with you but their not.

Just grabbing a faster weapon is completely meaningless too. It?s all about the damage to speed ratio. The two data fields are inherently linked in their function one with out the other is completely useless like many other things in life. In a balanced game the damage dealt by a fast or slow weapon should be similar when looking at the mean average across a number of round totals with an exact character using them. The only real difference is how it looks to the reader ie harder and less swings vs. lighter and more swings. It?s all about the most damage dealt; in the most amount of swings. If you only have one of those conditions then half the time you?re fooling yourself into thinking your doing more then you actually are.

Also, I dont want any spiritual crap with whunters.  I play them because in life, I am anti-magic.  All that faery and "good angel" new age crap, flush it down the toilet and let me get out my club of maiming.

LOL club of maiming. I don?t know how to say it any other way but a witch hunter without the witch is only a hunter. Ie. No spiritual crap to hate on = no witch hunter. The two are intrinsically linked with in their contextual credence. Do I have to break out my copy of the Malleus Maleficarum? A real witch hunter, a smart witch hunter is concerned with the abilities and limitations of its foe. And in so taking measure of its foe defends himself and country men with his knowledge and faith from those heretics. In real life the types of people that qualify as having a fanatical hatred of something spend an exorbitant amount of time tying to pick it apart to prove where it is wrong.

I could see some sort of prayer system but one that is in a "form", in other words, it locks you and changes your style for the day or for like an hour or so.

?Oh I?m sorry little girl I can?t save you right now and exorcise this demon from the room, you have to understand I prayed 20 minutes ago and it hasn?t worn off yet.? The truth of the matter is most witch hunters were of the priestly persuasion and when?s the last time you saw a priest say oh I can?t pray again my last prayer might not have worn off yet. It?s just simply silly to say it locks you in; it would just be a bad remake of the gypsy fortune teller and on top of that severely limiting to what we could do provide witch hunters with viable playable content and interesting abilities that would go along with their core purpose within the game.

If it did have alternative effect choices like a form, I would want then there to be no mention of mana pts at all.  No regen needed, just do it whenever.  You can have timers to it, but it won?t matter.

I already went over this it wouldn?t be mana it would be faith. Doing it whenever leads to unbalanced play. The reason for a tally at all is to simply play out the limitations of ones fortitude within the confines of their belief and ability to use that successfully against their opponent. It doesn?t matter how pious a person is in this regard as some point they are going to reach their limit and need to take a break.

I like the hitmagic anything! it makes them USEFUL right NOW in parties!  dont take that away. honest.

I didn?t say anything about taking it away, though I would like to augment its usefulness by allowing it to grow in power and the player levels. I just think it?s silly to say that a class should be created and potentially ended at such a static power level given the amount of levels they could go through.

[El_Jefe]

There are many classes that deserve static power, a trait at birth, a way to be always, a notch in their belt that makes them likeable or useless (depending on who you are) from the get go.

hit magic 5 is that.  you know you cant exactly kill outright your foe, but you know you can hurt them as their magic level is meaningless to you.  you might need 10 of your friends to help you, but, like crusaders, you swarm and hack and

get out that club of maiming

thats what it is all about.  blood on the floor and a pagan priestess wanabe anti-church slut dead on the floor with a short whine yelped out at the last annoying moment.

yeah, thats how I roll.

It still stand by my idea that there should be no points system.  It should be like stances.  tactics.  You choose like Fencing form, or Blind Defense, or Twat Kick and you fight in that manner.  Same with prayers, you pray during your thing and the battle goes a certain way and wont go other ways, you wont be able to do certain things or crit as much but maybe be accurate vs magic guys, etc.

no mana though.  that would make it UNIQUE.  no pts system, just changes.  one change, no stacking, only maybe a usage like say, Fencing Skill will be turned on plus like Prayer of the Unsightly Ho, and you will fight/defend in that manner now.  Flip it in mid battle at will, but now you are Using Prayer of teh Unsightly Ho and Bible Thump.

i never want to see life=303,faith=12.  I want to see life=303.  thats it.  please dont make a whunter a paladin who cant use magic weapons....