Penalty for dying

[Vitoc]

I believe we need to figure out a more harsh penalty for dying.? In Major MUD when you die, your character is right back where he was in 10 minutes with just one less life (out of 9), and that is easily taken care of at your next level when you get up to 5 more.? It's a mere inconvenience.? I proposed a penalty, -x or -x% to each stat, hp/ma, and to experience.

I like it however I think its a little onesided and I can see a lot of potential problems that could come with it. The idea in general though I think would have a good impact on the number of leftover CPs a player is not able to use though out the game because of stat caps. However at the same time too many left over CPs will negate the effects of this type of system. (Note - The rate of CP gain per level might also be a good thing to have configurable in this case.)

If we were to do this type of system though I think we should also put in ways to boost stats via questing. Like a feats of strenght quest or similar type of thing. Since That could provide players with ways of regaining their lost stats or for a character to gain some advantage in the game rather then just gaining it through others losses.

One of the other things that could be toyed with is a temperary losses to stats... Perhaps we could use a stackable spell that weakens the character for a period after they lose a life in the game.

I agree there should be some possibility for them to regain those lost stats, but it can't be as simple as waiting for a period.? It needs to be something they have to really work for in order to really discourage people from dying (after all, they are dying, heh).

[The Crazy Animal]

I agree that the stats should be earned back and it shouldn't be simple. I figured I'd just throw out that temp stat decline as a viable idea while it was on topic still.

The one problem that I have with this is stats cost differing amounts through out the game so a stat might be 1:1 CP to 1:10 CPs in cost... this means that as a player gets higher into the levels and have higher stats the greater the risk becomes especially with those races that have problem stats like 20 str or super low agil.... While CPs per level do go up I'm not sure if its a fair trade off? I think it would be good for the game but at the same time I wouldn't want it to seem like were punishing high level characters/high stat players....

The other concern I have is will the players till take the risks? I mean part of the fun of the game just from a mmud perspective is taking that level 1 character in to the ancient crypt just to collect fine broadswords to sell. At that point in the game you can risk life and limb and not have it effect you later..

One more thing that I think really needs to be looked at is: PVP balance while it is a small part of the game we need to make sure that the loss of the stat poins does not degrade a characters ability to fight at a decent survival rate within its PVP bracket. How many deaths should it take to reduce a characters stats by 1 level? Secondly what is our ideal level range bracket for pvp? And do we want to limit the rate of stat decay to keep the player in that ideal stat range?

[Vitoc]

I agree that the stats should be earned back and it shouldn't be simple. I figured I'd just throw out that temp stat decline as a viable idea while it was on topic still.

The one problem that I have with this is stats cost differing amounts through out the game so a stat might be 1:1 CP to 1:10 CPs in cost... this means that as a player gets higher into the levels and have higher stats the greater the risk becomes especially with those races that have problem stats like 20 str or super low agil.... While CPs per level do go up I'm not sure if its a fair trade off? I think it would be good for the game but at the same time I wouldn't want it to seem like were punishing high level characters/high stat players....

Yeah, it may not be a fair trade off.? What if we subtract a certain # of CPs instead (if you don't have any, you owe CPs at next level).? A level 1-10 would lose 2 cps.? Level 10-20 would lose 3, 20-30 would lose 4, etc.

The other concern I have is will the players till take the risks? I mean part of the fun of the game just from a mmud perspective is taking that level 1 character in to the ancient crypt just to collect fine broadswords to sell. At that point in the game you can risk life and limb and not have it effect you later..

I believe it will actually make the concept of "risk" more fun.? Right now what risk is there?? I mean you die, get your gear back, and you're only down one life.? Do you try to take on a boss sooner than the rest of the realm to try to obtain that limited item when you know your character will truly be penalized if you die?? Do you risk PVPing when every death means a slightly weaker character?

One more thing that I think really needs to be looked at is: PVP balance while it is a small part of the game we need to make sure that the loss of the stat poins does not degrade a characters ability to fight at a decent survival rate within its PVP bracket. How many deaths should it take to reduce a characters stats by 1 level? Secondly what is our ideal level range bracket for pvp? And do we want to limit the rate of stat decay to keep the player in that ideal stat range?

PvP is a beast of a topic.? Everyone's got varying views on it.? Personally, I think PVP should be completely open (ie. no level limits).? Why shouldn't a level 75 pally be able to slaughter a level 1 noob if he so desires.? Hasn't he earned that right?? Now if he starts pissing off too many people, he's liable to have 3 or 4 level 50+ characters take him down a notch.? I just don't believe in artificial barriers that appear outside the scope of the realm.? There needs to be (and will be) better in-game law enforcement that helps protect people and prevents one or more powerful characters completely taking over a realm by force.

If someone is killed several times and their stats get reduced to the point where they can't compete with people in their same level range, it's time for them to reroll.

[The Crazy Animal]

Yeah, it may not be a fair trade off.? What if we subtract a certain # of CPs instead (if you don't have any, you owe CPs at next level).? A level 1-10 would lose 2 cps.? Level 10-20 would lose 3, 20-30 would lose 4, etc.

That would be fairer but for some reason I like thinking that it should effect them right away... One of the other things that conserns me is going below the racial stat min (I can already hear the halflings complaining about getting down to 0 str). You know the other fair thing we could do is make them lose a % of exp based on their characters exp chart but that would really only lead to increasing the level grind at points..

I believe it will actually make the concept of "risk" more fun.? Right now what risk is there?? I mean you die, get your gear back, and you're only down one life.? Do you try to take on a boss sooner than the rest of the realm to try to obtain that limited item when you know your character will truly be penalized if you die?? Do you risk PVPing when every death means a slightly weaker character?

See I don't look at it like its increasing the risk but rather punishing for failure... I'm a firm believer in risk should equal the perceived reward. Right now there isn't a reward in the picture so its hard to judge on this level. At any rate though with the exception to some players most will not do something that is overly difficult or risky unless they know its worth it.

PvP is a beast of a topic.? Everyone's got varying views on it.? Personally, I think PVP should be completely open (ie. no level limits).? Why shouldn't a level 75 pally be able to slaughter a level 1 noob if he so desires.? Hasn't he earned that right?? Now if he starts pissing off too many people, he's liable to have 3 or 4 level 50+ characters take him down a notch.? I just don't believe in artificial barriers that appear outside the scope of the realm.? There needs to be (and will be) better in-game law enforcement that helps protect people and prevents one or more powerful characters completely taking over a realm by force.

I think PCs and NPCs need to be treated the same. PVP though is a hard one to push to these limits since the NPC's tend not to be as malicious as some players can be. While nothing stops the ARD from killing a noob the ARD doesn't go looking for noobs to kill. Unfortunately a PC can really differ in that aspect. Sure there are ways to increase the penalties for doing something like this but is it really worth it and what do the players really gain from it?

If someone is killed several times and their stats get reduced to the point where they can't compete with people in their same level range, it's time for them to reroll.

Part of me really wants to take this to the extreme and say why don't we just get rid of the lives concept all together and let the stat reduction to sort the players out to the point of rerolling.

[DeathCow]

Exp debt works.

[Vitoc]

That would be fairer but for some reason I like thinking that it should effect them right away... One of the other things that conserns me is going below the racial stat min (I can already hear the halflings complaining about getting down to 0 str). You know the other fair thing we could do is make them lose a % of exp based on their characters exp chart but that would really only lead to increasing the level grind at points..

See I don't look at it like its increasing the risk but rather punishing for failure... I'm a firm believer in risk should equal the perceived reward. Right now there isn't a reward in the picture so its hard to judge on this level. At any rate though with the exception to some players most will not do something that is overly difficult or risky unless they know its worth it.

I think PCs and NPCs need to be treated the same. PVP though is a hard one to push to these limits since the NPC's tend not to be as malicious as some players can be. While nothing stops the ARD from killing a noob the ARD doesn't go looking for noobs to kill. Unfortunately a PC can really differ in that aspect. Sure there are ways to increase the penalties for doing something like this but is it really worth it and what do the players really gain from it?

Part of me really wants to take this to the extreme and say why don't we just get rid of the lives concept all together and let the stat reduction to sort the players out to the point of rerolling.

I'm all for nixing the lives concept and that's kind of what this thread is all about; dramatically changing the way people view lives.? Right now, you can't deny dying is typically just a 10 minute inconvenience.? Over the course of 3 levels you can die what? 18 times? And it has no lasting impact on your character (you might be careful on your last life, but that only lasts til you level).? While an exp penalty is a step in the right direction, it's still just an inconvience with no lasting effect on the character whatsoever.? Dying should be a horrible experience, one that is avoided at all costs.? Look at it like a battle scar, imagine a high level character's agony when they lose a few stat points, hp and mana, and their resolve to not let it happen again.? Boss runs would be more exciting because now there's more at stake than just dropping your gear for a few minutes.

I don't know, maybe I just have a different vision of what makes a game exciting.? We've all scripted 24/7 for months at a time, but how "fun" was that?? Sure it's enjoyable to tinker with settings trying to maximize your eph and level as quickly as possible, but boss runs were typically a 1-2 hour ordeal where you either succeeded or failed.  Either way it really didn't matter, you were right back to scripting shortly thereafter and in the end we all have cookie cutter characters with the exact same stats.  Let's give people something to really be proud of; a character with no deaths in his/her lifetime.  Maybe they could earn a shot at a special quest weapon, spell, or a special title.

As for the PvP thing, we need to make in-game law enforcement handle when people start getting out of hand.  Here again, in Major MUD when you're FIEND what real impact does that have on your character?  You can waltz right through the center of Silvermere if you're armored enough or if you're sneaking, it's really kind of just an inconvenience.  In my opinion, being at that extreme alignment, you should invoke the wrath of a "good-aligned" city.  They should send out everything they've got to kill you, and a city like Silvermere should have some uber-high leveled law enforcement and/or hundreds of reserves for such occasions.  Similarly, there should be evil-aligned cities where goodie two-shoes are hunted down like the pansies they really are (ok, I got carried away there. ;) )

[The Crazy Animal]

I'm all for nixing the lives concept and that's kind of what this thread is all about; dramatically changing the way people view lives.  Right now, you can't deny dying is typically just a 10 minute inconvenience.  Over the course of 3 levels you can die what? 18 times? And it has no lasting impact on your character (you might be careful on your last life, but that only lasts til you level).  While an exp penalty is a step in the right direction, it's still just an inconvience with no lasting effect on the character whatsoever.  Dying should be a horrible experience, one that is avoided at all costs.  Look at it like a battle scar, imagine a high level character's agony when they lose a few stat points, hp and mana, and their resolve to not let it happen again.  Boss runs would be more exciting because now there's more at stake than just dropping your gear for a few minutes.

The inconvenience of dying is generally no worse then the risk you took when you died. If you die in an area that was way to high for you then it can quite more then 10 minutes but I?m not going to argue this.

I don?t really like the exp penalty because it?s just going to just lead to the levels grinding out more slowly. We already have a problem with this so I don?t think we should try to make it worse unless we plan on making the game playable again with out the need of scripting first.

Death shouldn?t be so frustrating that it deters players from playing. I agree that it needs to be improved but I think we need to tread carefully here. What if we make this like a game of chance here?

When you die in the game it rolls a random:
Chance 1: Nothing happens
Chance 2: You loose exp. Random amount between x and y %
Chance 3: You get wounded (long term temporary stat reduction)
Sub Chance A: Damage to 1 stat (random stat pick)
To
Sub Chance blah: damage to all stats
Chance 4: You get a battle scar (permanent stat reduction)
Sub Option A: Damage to 1 stat (random stat pick)
To
Sub Chance blah: damage to all stats
Chance 5: You loose CPs (amount depends on level.)

This way users still have a chance to get away scot-free but at worse might take some long character damage. This way they both have the incentive to try and the increased risk.

(snip) Let's give people something to really be proud of; a character with no deaths in his/her lifetime.  Maybe they could earn a shot at a special quest weapon, spell, or a special title.

I like this idea but I?m not sure what to give them. Lets borrow a part of another idea for this what if for each level a player plays without dying we give them some type of prestige credit. Now they can either use this credit right away or save it for another character. It would work something like this each power boon would have a credit cost and its power would be roughly equal to that cost. The power boon would appear on the character as an innate ability (use per day spell).

http://greatermud.com/forums/index.php?topic=691.0

As for the PvP thing, we need to make in-game law enforcement handle when people start getting out of hand.  Here again, in Major MUD when you're FIEND what real impact does that have on your character?  You can waltz right through the center of Silvermere if you're armored enough or if you're sneaking, it's really kind of just an inconvenience.  In my opinion, being at that extreme alignment, you should invoke the wrath of a "good-aligned" city.  They should send out everything they've got to kill you, and a city like Silvermere should have some uber-high leveled law enforcement and/or hundreds of reserves for such occasions.  Similarly, there should be evil-aligned cities where goodie two-shoes are hunted down like the pansies they really are (ok, I got carried away there. ;) )

I think for one we need to apply militant power zones the further away from a town you get the less chance there is for law enforcement to interfere. NPCs in town should also indirectly defend players via a call for guards spell. Guards should also have call for aid spells that summon guards of appropriate levels ranges to punish the offending players. Secondly I don?t think alignment should be treated the same as it was in mmud I think that it should be zone based. I posted about this as faction alignment. http://greatermud.com/forums/index.php?topic=371.0 This type of system would solve a lot of the area alignment problems that created safe script spots but also makes it so that you can attempt based on your actions to blend in to the crowds in a new area. Now this by itself will not stop major slaughter problems but we could also put back in bounty hunters as well as give players incentive to take out those offending players on either side of the law.

[Valentine]

Maybe this is stretching it, but what if stats (through CPs--I think...I'm still not entirely clear on the CP process) as well as levels are linked to exp? This way, not only would a 10% exp loss through death result in potentially a lower level, but also a decrease in stats.

Or we could just send chars to purgatory.

[The Crazy Animal]

Maybe this is stretching it, but what if stats (through CPs--I think...I'm still not entirely clear on the CP process) as well as levels are linked to exp? This way, not only would a 10% exp loss through death result in potentially a lower level, but also a decrease in stats.

Or we could just send chars to purgatory.

CPs are linked to levels which is tracked via exp. Each time you level you get some cps to spend towards raising stats. If you reduce the exp resulting in a lower level and in result reduce stats at the same time as soon as the player levels they will be able to respend that levels CP total again. so it wouldn't really work out that well if you adjust the level of the player also. Exp by itself or in conjunction with stat reduction would be fine though as it wouldn't result in duplicate level gains.

[Valentine]

...but if you loose any CPs (and resulting stat increases you've obtained) due to the decrease in exp, wouldn't that... ugh, never mind. Y'all know better anyway.

What if dying imposes a certain cap on down the road....I know there is no max level, but for example (not real example..since there is no level cap...but humor me here):

Max exp = 100
Max exp^(1 death) = 98
Max exp^(2 deaths) = 95
...etc.

I really need to think about this more before posting (preferably without the help of alcohol), but I wanted to put the very basics of the idea out there.

[Eagerly awaits TCA's thrashing]

[...oops...did I say "eagerly"? ;)]

[The Crazy Animal]

...but if you loose any CPs (and resulting stat increases you've obtained) due to the decrease in exp, wouldn't that... ugh, never mind. Y'all know better anyway.

Ok here?s the problem if we remove a levels worth of CPs which vary in total depending on level. And then they level again to obtain the same level they just lost that means they just got those CPs they lost back. So for loosing a level to have any effect you would need to remove at least 2 levels worth of CPs for it to have any permanency on the character.

What if dying imposes a certain cap on down the road....I know there is no max level, but for example (not real example..since there is no level cap...but humor me here):

Max exp = 100
Max exp^(1 death) = 98
Max exp^(2 deaths) = 95
...etc.

In MMud there was a level cap set by the highest trainer you could train on as well as a cap on the max amount of exp you could store with out leveling. We don?t have either of these right now. This means you can be level 10 with 20000% exp the game doesn?t care right now. So I get what you?re saying here but with out a level cap in place this type of thing will not have an effect on the character. Now if we put a max level in that basically saying well that level is the end of the game. If there is an end of the game via max level and have a death penalty via a per death max exp loss as soon as it gets to 99.99999% below the exp needed for that max level we basically just told them they automatically lose the game. They could still play but we?d save them a lot of wasted time by just re-rolling them on the spot because they will never be able to finish the game.

The caps that we do have in place that something like that might work with are stat caps now if dying caused a reduction in the stat caps it still wouldn?t matter till much later in the game in most cases. So while it?s a viable idea it?s not going to have that wow dying sucks effect until later in the game. There are also other caps other then the visible ones but most people wouldn?t really notice if they got a reduction in them.

I really need to think about this more before posting (preferably without the help of alcohol), but I wanted to put the very basics of the idea out there.

[Eagerly awaits TCA's thrashing]

[...oops...did I say "eagerly"? ;)]

Hope the alcohol makes the thrashings go down better.. :p

[Spooky]

Ok .. Thanks for the totally awesome effort you guys are all putting into this project. Trying to make a long story short I and about 8 of my friends have played mud nearly since its inception. We wore out the mud circuit and recently we all logged onto a few realms. We noticed quickly how much of the same game we were playing! We talked for hours and days about simple and complex improvements you could achieve with a text based game. None of us are anything remotely close to being classified as a CODER. Just big thinkers with endless, shameless, slothingly spent time on our hands. It is so kick ass to see what you are doing and the ideas presented... ok that said.....

Think about making more of a reward to people who dont die instead of a punishment for dying... you could incorporate the rewards into the next reroll .. after the FINAL THROWDOWN at the end of the game for the next realm they could be compensated for their efforts.. also instead of lives maybe have a life force that depletes.. the LIFE FORCE meter or % whatever coder language is for it.. could appear as part of your chars description.. somewhere it could describe him as having a life force so strong he emits light or whatever... or hes so low on life force he would be .. apeearing to be near exhaustion or something very pathetic...

If the whole Life force idea sucks, just give a person no more than 2 or 3 lives when leveling... heck or 1.. free life quest or something (probably already mentioned somewhere in this thread)

[The Crazy Animal]

Think about making more of a reward to people who dont die instead of a punishment for dying... you could incorporate the rewards into the next reroll .. after the FINAL THROWDOWN at the end of the game for the next realm they could be compensated for their efforts.. also instead of lives maybe have a life force that depletes.. the LIFE FORCE meter or % whatever coder language is for it.. could appear as part of your chars description.. somewhere it could describe him as having a life force so strong he emits light or whatever... or hes so low on life force he would be .. apeearing to be near exhaustion or something very pathetic...

I agree there needs to be a reward for living as well but a reward must be balanced with risk and vise versa. Using a visible meter to show how well a person is doing isn't a bad idea however a meter can't be the reward by itself it needs to do something special for the character. Lets say for the sake of the idea that the average life force is 50 points when you start the game. When a character dies they lose points and when they level without dying during that level they gain points.

Now to make things more intresting:
A character can also spend these life force points on special game objects (anything from an ability to a item).
The lower the life force points are also sets the chance rate for if something bad happens to the character when dying. See the above ideas on stat reduction.

Automatic reward or punishment for the next character. (for this lets say lifeforce points are capped at 100)
Defaultly in mmud when rerolled you get 10% of your exp back lets play with this type of game mechanic for a second or two. Let say how much you are above or below 50 life force points alters your next characters exp chart. So if you are above or below 50 that, that amount ((current life force total - 50) * -1) = Chart mod. This means that if you did really well or really bad you could get as much as 50 percentage points added or removed from your new characters exp chart.

[shattergod]

If you want a harsh penalty for dying then cause a random item to poof upon death. The more difficult to acquire the less likely it is to poof, but there's still a chance.

Example, When you die you roll a percentile die. 80% and below you're safe, 81% to 99% and you roll again. Roll a 100% and you roll twice. This is to determine which object(s) is possibly poofed.

Let's say you have three items that are poofable. 1-33% is the first item, 34%-66% is the second, 67%-99% is the third, 100% is another roll twice.

We'll say we rolled a 25%, so the first item is at risk. Each item comes with a predetermined percentile based on how difficult the item is to acquire. Higher level items will be less likely to poof, lower level items more likely. Quest items cannot poof.

My first item is safe on a roll of 1-75%, and is lost on a roll of 76%-100%.

This turns dying into a rather harsh, and large scale version of russian roullette no matter what level you are, no matter how often you script. It will also make PvP that much more dangerous.

[The Crazy Animal]

If you want a harsh penalty for dying then cause a random item to poof upon death. The more difficult to acquire the less likely it is to poof, but there's still a chance.

Example, When you die you roll a percentile die. 80% and below you're safe, 81% to 99% and you roll again. Roll a 100% and you roll twice. This is to determine which object(s) is possibly poofed.

Let's say you have three items that are poofable. 1-33% is the first item, 34%-66% is the second, 67%-99% is the third, 100% is another roll twice.

We'll say we rolled a 25%, so the first item is at risk. Each item comes with a predetermined percentile based on how difficult the item is to acquire. Higher level items will be less likely to poof, lower level items more likely. Quest items cannot poof.

My first item is safe on a roll of 1-75%, and is lost on a roll of 76%-100%.

This turns dying into a rather harsh, and large scale version of russian roullette no matter what level you are, no matter how often you script. It will also make PvP that much more dangerous.

That would get in the way of pvping for items...